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Hi, King, decided to open a new section for subj - previous one have outgrew. Now I should ask you what form is more preferred for you: if you have MS Visual Studio 5 (or 8), I can just send you the source code with full permissions to modify and use it under your own discretion. Otherwise I can publish it somewhere "as is" for online setup. In such case i should make some modifications to make it's functionality more obvious to you. It never was intended to be used by someone but me, so even command buttons here don't have any text on them explaining their role (as you can see in screenshots). Unfortunatelly .NET-enabled Somee server I'm hosting on is temporarilly down - I hope not for a long time... Anyway, let me know your choice and possible wishes for additional functionality (current version is oriented on songs info updating - asins, itunes, album in header and footer, language, 'review me' deletion etc.). Keep in mind that I'm still sure: current approach (mimicring web browsing) is club-footed - as most programmers I hate dull typing in browser window as well as none the less dull text parsing in programs. So instead of further developing this app I'd prefer to convince someone of you that LW hardly needs more functional WS, enabling us to write and use more data-oriented and more predictable tools for managing LW content. Regards, --Senvaikis (talk) 07:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I would say that I would take the second approach, providing that is not a hassle. Besides making the functions obvious, I do have one other request: Place a stamp on the edit comments overtly stating "LwUtil modified" or somesuch, so my edits and my edits w/LwUtil are separate.
BTW: any user manual materials you want to include are a welcome addition.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 04:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Please drop me an e-mail - your account doesn't have public-available e-mail address. --Senvaikis (talk) 06:13, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
It is now. Special:EmailUser/Kingnee1114lyrics. Thanks!
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 17:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, check your e-mail. I do believe you'll have some questions - it would be better if we discuss them by e-mail. good luck, --Senvaikis (talk) 21:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The best demonstration of low LwTools foolproofing - the mess I've made myself, creating a plenty of empty new pages for songs with unknown lyrics. I noticed this bug only today (Queen edits). I was going to ask you for a favour - to undo all those new page creations (LwTools shouldn't create pages at all). But now I see you have dissapeared. Hope not for a long... Ok, at worst I'll remove all those pages manually.... Sorry, --Senvaikis (talk) 21:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I am sorry, but I have disappeared again. I have not much time (even now) and my computer is dead. I really won't be able to play with it much until I've got that working again, which I hope is soon! I am very excited to have such a tool to use, once I get back into the swing of editing.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 04:30, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi Senv! Next time you need an admin fast, leave a note on my talk page. and great job on Suzanne Vega, amongst all the others...cheers ES (Talk) 04:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Sierra. See you soon @your talk ;), --Senvaikis (talk) 05:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

API question

Can you do me a favour please Senv and tell me if you experience any problems obtaining lyrics for this artist with the API thingy: Les Cowboys Fringants? Thanks!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 10:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely any problems, for very simple reason - response to API request is absolutely empty :)
  <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" ?> 
- <getArtistResponse>
  <artist>Les Cowboys Fringants</artist> 
  <albums /> 
The fact you are asking about that shows that you've looked already at that page in edit mode, so I'm sure you know the answer to the question why it's empty - too many times I was speaking about that.
BTW, the same (while not so evident) problem is valid for some pages under yor watching (e.g. Frank Sinatra, David Bowie). That's why some DB songs still don't have asins, iTunes, language etc. attributes - they are unavailable for my LwTool via API. I was going to ask you - maybe you can suggest some other, more correct way to get a list of all songs of particular artist?
Of course, if you know exactly the title of song, then another API function will be able to show you the lyrics of that particular song - just click above link...
Sorry again for 'broken record' ;). Cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 13:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

YA: API getArtist()

Hi Senv, I know all about the limitations that you mention. I have been following that thread for quite a while now, but I'm afraid all I can do is pass on the message to Sean. I agree it needs to be fixed and that's why I tried the list album function @ John Lee Hooker. The artist page with "list album" has a character count under 5KB, but still the entire songlist gets loaded at ~60 KB as you say, but that's unavoidable, (methinks). I only tested JLH with the utilities that fetch single song via itunes. I know how important getArtist() is when we need to apply mass corrections to the db (as you have been doing recently). Hopefully the current upgrades Sean is applying will get us there. cheers ES (Talk) 09:05, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Sierra, that's just what I wanted :) Now I'm busy marking for deletion pages LwUtil accidentaly created. Would you be so kind to delete them? Cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 09:07, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Done ES (Talk) 09:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


Senv, may I introduce you to Pathoschild..>>> template and API. Can you answer her question? Me thinks that maybe she could assist....  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 17:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to, Red (have followed your discussion), but unfortunatelly must confess I'm complete simp regarding python, so could only sigh deeply looking at luxury demonstrated in wikimedia API samples provided by Pathoschild... I suppose, you too ;). Agree, - LW hardly needs something similar. What I might suggest - just start looking for someone like Pathoschild, able to help Sean in this extremely important field. What do you think about that, Pathoschild? Sadly I'm too illiterate and too old to be included in such team... :) Cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 18:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Senv  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 19:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Timed Lyrics

Interesting post...didn't want you to miss it LyricWiki_talk:Community_Portal#Timestamping_Lyrics ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 19:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Red (checked the history of help page). Regarding discussion mentioned in the post - yes, it was interesting, but it was way back and you know how it was finished :) cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 20:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


Senv could you tell me which of the following templates should be used where song has timed lyrics:

I have been using {{LrcDB}} and this is also what I have put in Help instructions on main page. If any of these are redundant, tell me and I'll delete them for you, since I believe there should only be one in main space. Thanks!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 23:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

As you correctly noticed, only one, LrcDB, now is active and should be used (and only this template was created or edited by me, so I can't speak about others, though imo all of them can be treated just as outdated tests). All my temporary template testing subpages are deleted already.--Senvaikis (talk) 21:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Cheers Senv!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 23:49, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Collecting iTunes Data

Senv when you have time would you peek at S2E2 and if you wish, comment on the itunes data question? TIA, cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ()21:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Bot Portal

I know you haven't got a bot, but nevertheless thought you might be interested in knowing about this page >>>> LyricWiki:Bot Portal. Regards,  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 22:10, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


I am sorry that I haven't given any feedback yet on this, but I haven't been able to sit down with it at all (I guess that is what you get for having 2 jobs and no internet at home). As soon as I can, I am going to sit down with this and play with it, thanks for the updated version.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 04:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I have finally had some time to sit down and have some one on one time with LWtools. I have to say, Not bad at all. I spent most of my time fixing up Broken Social Scene, and this thing really saves on time. Some things that would be nice in the next versions would be things like auto-adding to watchlist, A kill process button (sometimes it will just stop working and spin until I shut it down and restart), and lastly the ability to modify what the album is going to appear as in the SongFooter. Thanks for this thing, I am going to try to make as much use out of it as I possibly can.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 17:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Truth to tell, was a little surprised - even checked your contributions list to ensure that you've manageged to use that :)
Speaking about bugs & features to add - yes, there are a lot things to do, and my own todo list is much longer ;)

Regarding your wishlist:

  • Auto-adding to watchlist - no problem. Now that depends on value of Add pages I edit to my watchlist checkbox in your user Preferences/Watchlist. It's possible to include additional option for util settings, enabling/disablig auto-adding regardless of your user-settings. Just let me know what you'd like more - 'silent' obligatory auto-adding or ability to set behavior in Options.
  • Yes, necessity of ability to cancell a long not-responding processes is obvious. I'm working on that, though some things aren't as simple as they may seem initially - util is extensively using multithreaded asynchronous calls to external services, and sometimes it's not so easy to cancell process, going in another thread and 'hanged' in external service. Anyway, app reloading as the only workaround is absolutely unacceptable indeed, so I'd appreciate any sort of your notes about such situations details.
  • About album in the footer: truth to tell, that could be a substance of a separate discussion (honestly I must confess that for a while I haven't found any soundly based explanation what is the purpose of double album appearance in both header and footer). Anyway while things are such as they are, the question about album in the footer is tightly related with an album/s in header. Correct me if my understanding how they should be filled is wrong: song heeader may contain as many {{tl:Song}} with different albums as many official releases contain this song (in an order of release date), while footer may contain only one album parameter, and the only one reasoned value in my understanding should be the name of the first official album containing this song, e.g. the name of an album in the first {{tl:Song}}. So according with such understanding and my provision to overwrite only obviously erroneous values set by other users, my scenario of app using is very simple: start scrolling all particular artist songs groupped by albums in order of release date; if album values aren't set, then set them, supposing that that's the first appearance of this song. I do know that this scenario is far from ideal. That's why I left an option to overwrite album values. So when you want to set another album value in the footer, you must chose that album and overwrite album (overwriting both header and footer). Of course, there is a possibility to set all correct album values in header and footer automatically, using album page link Special:WhatLinksHere and ordering given albums by date. But that would be very costly, increasing number of requests to server in geometrical progression. So if you have some ideas how this scenario could be improved, - thanks in advance.

Was going to tell about some other tasks possible to add, but it's too late now and seems that my post is pretending already to beat Red's padding records, so let us leave it for tomorrow ;) Cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 21:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Lots of good stuff here. I'd like to point out that, in all honesty, I hate the method for albums in the SongFooter. In the past, I've never used it, but recently there has been more emphasis on perfect completeness, I've decided to do what the standard is (however, I would not do this manually, but rather through LWtools). As far as how to improve this, my brainstorms have always gotten me nowhere, mostly because I tend to solve problems through a template, and as we both know, non-finte lists and templates are not friends.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 14:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi, nice to hear you again.
Waiting while irritattion caused by bel-ring-pornography goes down, decided to allot some time to lwTools. I've done already some changes, including some from your wishlist. Now adding to watchlist can be either automatic or according to your user preferrences, depending on your choice in app settings. Most of long-running processes now can be cancelled (still remains some things to do...). Regarding albums in header/footer: thus far I can't imagine any acceptable completely-automatic batch update scenario for such task. And not a technical problems are the bottle-neck here. I've made already additional procedure updating header/footer album for one selected song. It takes selected song, collects all albums of this artist, having a link to that song and sorts them by release date. So, album in footer should be the first album of this list, and header... Yep, the real bottle-neck is here. Now look at situation we have: how would you like a song page with a huge list of all possible albums the song has appeared on? There's no any strict documented bounds for the lenght of album list in header, but IMO it goes without saying that it should contain only original, most important/known/valuable releases. But such filtering is just impossible without interoperability, e.g. your personal cchoice. In other words: for the meanwhile all I can propose is semi-automatical update, - song-by-song, waiting for your interruption on every song.
BTW, what kind of app deployment have you used - downloadable executable or clickonce app online install? I'd recomend you the second one, 'cause it has a possibility of automatical version update. Sadly availability of the site I'm hosting on is extremelly unstable last few days...
cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 19:00, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
There is one compromise solution enabling non-interrupable batch updating - forsaking attempts to list all required albums in header: adding the first appearance album only to the footer and leaving header as is if it contains the same album or adding the same album at the top of the header. What can you say about such approach? --Senvaikis (talk) 19:44, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
OK, lots to respond to. First, I tried the clickonce, but there was an error, saying that files were missing, so I just went with the exe. So you will have to inform me when the new version is out.
I think that keeping the first album the song is on in the footer is a good idea, and however you want to facilitate that, fine by me. I wouldn't put too much into the code for the album, though, as it isn't a huge thing. What I would like to do, though, is possibly choose the display of the album (You Forgot It In People =/= You Forgot it in People).
I am going to go for a real test of lwtools: Beck. We shall see if I mess something up this time.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 16:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Current version is 1.5.2 (still on development - some functions not finished). It's available in both uploadable exe & clickonce app modes. I've tried the second one - install worked on 3 different boxes. If you still have some problems with online install - please, drop me more detailed description of err. msg. by e-mail. Good luck, --Senvaikis (talk) 17:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
There is an issue that I saw in 1.3, and have seen even more in 1.5. The asin/itunes update checks before the new page is loaded, which means the previous page is checked. I have difficulty explaining it...Are you having issues?
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 17:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
OK, it isn't just 1.5. But the program is checking the page before it has a chance to load, and then moving on. Could it be the speed at which the site is loading?
I must to check that, - one of possible reasons may be double call to asin & itunes checking procedures - this calls are handled by albumAsin combobox SelectedIndexChanged event, and very likely it may be fired twice per change. Thanks for info, --Senvaikis (talk) 17:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
I restarted the program and that stopped, so good. But I have one last thing: Is the auto detect for Instrumentals removed/not working? I've got a few pages that I had used LWtools to add an instrumental, and with the new 1.5, it overwrote them. Take a look at my last contributions for an example.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 18:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Done (on Ambulance For The Ambiance, with 1.5.2). Is it bad?--Senvaikis (talk) 18:08, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Lol, now I've got! :) You've possibly missed one interesting discussion...:)--Senvaikis (talk) 18:16, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Apparently I had. Sad, seeing that rule emplaced. My personal preference was always to forego the lyric tags and just have the simple banner. What I want to make sure of is that if the page is instrumental, that the language is as it should be. What had happened was that 1.5 replaced Language/Instrumental with Language/English.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 02:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Well I fell in that trap too, once or twice with the bot ;) Senv what IDE did you use to write LWutils? cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 03:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
4King: Yep, finaly I found a bug you pointed out (with a help of Beck). That was 'side-effect' of retraining to conform requirement of mandatory lyrics tags for instrumental songs (doubtful imo too, but either rule is better then no rules). Now cured in (@ 4shared). Concerning other bug (double asin info calling) - I still can't reproduce a situation you described; it would be helpful to know more details of such situations.
4ES: I'm using Microsoft Visual Studio 2005, version 8.0.50727.42 (.NET Framework version 2.0.50727 SP1)
regards, --Senvaikis (talk) 08:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I'll let you know if I find that bug again. I haven't been able to recreate it, though. Thanks for fixing the instrumental thing, also.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 18:06, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

This deserves to have it's own section :)

Diamond Record The Diamond Record
Senvaikis, I hereby present you with this Diamond Record ...I thought it was about time you received another one ;) Thanks for your continued efforts Senv!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 00:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Glad to see you are still the richest here (having most gemstone, precious metals & care) :). Thanks, Red, --Senvaikis (talk) 17:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC) back to LWT...

I will go ahead and agree with Red, here, since LWtools has been wildly helpful for me. I do have a couple more things that I'd like to submit to the dev list. First, when updating, can this thing go from top to bottom, as opposed to bottom to top? I ask, because in the case of albums there might be a remixed version of a song later in the album (say a hidden track at the end) but they would have different Asins and such. Going top to bottom would make this work more seamlessly.
Bulleted Idea List (because I am not creative or verbose enough)
  • Page rank is another big thing, but I don't expect to see that for a bit yet.
  • Run the asin/itunes AND language task simultaneously (both in one edit). This would cut down on edit spamming (I think by about half, lol).
  • I have noticed that your toolset can and does clean up little things in a song, automatically. Now, this one is probably me being completely retentive, but I think a page looks better and is easier to read if there is a blank line between the song header and the lyrics tag, and no blank line between the tag and the actual lyrics, and the same at the bottom. The more little things like that we can do with LWtools, the further it will move from being a standard-format supplement to a standard-format substitute.
Those are the ideas that I have for the moment, I'll try to brainstorm a few more. But one other thing: I remember when this thing was first starting that you thought that LW tools would have been dangerous in anyone's hands (including mine). I'd like to say that you have done a very, very good job of goof-proofing LWtools to the point that it is.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 07:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and one Other Songs related thing. Would it be possible to set up an exception for Other Songs? I notice LT tries to make links for ARTIST:Other Songs ().

Well, all your notes/wishes are reasonable and realizable, I'd even say - minimalistic ;). The only one exeption may be page ranking. If you mean only granting a star to a page, - that's not a problem. But If you are speaking about general solution for all cases of albums and songs starring with synchronized talk_page filling - that should wait for a while, till I have more free time. Current todo list still contains some priority tasks you haven't mentioned, but I know that you know they must be done - app is still buggy; there's still no tab for album asin & iTunes info update; etc. Yesterday I found one more language updating bug... Anyway, I hope to cover most of your list to the end of this week :) But when all these must-to do tasks will be closed, we may discuss more interesting possibilities (which I'm using in other my utils ;)) Some possible topics for your contemplation:

  • Amazon & MB WS-based album information (tracks, rel. dates, lengths, cover arts etc.) searcher/wikifier
  • LrcDB searcher/updater
  • Syncmaker - lw & lrcdb-connected util with integrated mp3 player for handy lrc (synchronized lyrics) making, down/up-loading and according mp3 file tagging (ID3v.2)
  • ...and of course - already mentioned page ranker/checker/rank info synchronizer. Btw, if you haven't noticed - I stopped granting pages any stars; chosed better preparing them for starring by others ;)

Thanks for your valuable notes, cheers,--Senvaikis (talk) 10:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Granted, my ideas there were minimal, but I only do that because I am starting somewhere, and I didn't know how much you wanted to invest in this whole affair. Also, right now I am just trying to run around and swat bugs, since this thing is still somewhere between an alpha and a beta (I'll let the programmer decide). Anyway, I spent a little more time playing with 1.5.5, and I have a few more things to say:
  • I would like to be able to select and change fields before editing. Right now, I am limited to what your search engine finds, and it is good mind you, but there are some albums that just don't pick up for whatever reason. In a perfect world, I would be able to copy the found album asin into LWtools and hit refresh.
  • Now expand that to other things. Hit the 'check' button, 'pseudoupdate' to prefill all information, and then if there is any information that you'd like to change (a song that happens to be in a different language, a missing asin, fill in the credits, etc), do so and hit the 'update' button and it goes through and make all changes at once.
And don't worry, I will have more ideas as time goes on.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 00:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Also, also: That double check bug is still around, albeit less so. Now it happens when the page you are checking does not exist.
Starting from the bottom:
  • Nothing strange, keeping in mind that those processes are running in different threads and info request starts automatically every time selected album changes. You may chose what you prefere - if you like, I can disable iasin nfo search auto-start - then you'll get asin info only after clickin' "Get asins".
  • Yep, sometimes info search fails (especially when album title contains artist name), and wish to have ability to import search results is reasonable. Having additional form for such searches with found info import ability could be added to ToDo list. As one of compromise solutions can be ability to load info about album with known asin (you find asin of album, paste into album asin field and load all info with one click). Another possible approach - just drag-drop particular item from Amazon page (that could be done just today if you wish).
  • Truth to tell, I was thinking about such functionality too (collecting full page info with ability to change values of most fields before updating). But that's already completelly different mode of processing, having almost nothing in common with batch updating... Of course, it's possible to have similar tab or even form in lwt, sad only that my ardour is slowly dying, especially looking at reminder below...:(
regards, --Senvaikis (talk) 10:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Check for v. 1.5.6 - some of tasks discussed above are done:

  • One more issue regarding double/past info display removed
  • more compact display of unmatched items
  • ability to enter album asin value you've found somewhere before starting asin info search;
    • alternative way - just drag and drop album link from Amazon page onto trackListView - combobox "Asin" will grab album asin and tracks info will be shown.

Take Madonna:Evita for experiment (both album title and artist don't correspond in LW & amazon, so it's tracks asin info remains empty after normal search). Open Amazon Mp3 Downloads search page on any browser, find this album, open it's page and drop it's address onto trackList. Btw, one more bug here has appeared - lwt misreads albums having colon (:) in title :). Ok, I'll look at this later (it's ok, false charge - edited) - anyway, as usual, I've surely made a couple of new bugs while making these changes, so you'll have a new job again ;). Good luck, --Senvaikis (talk) 19:37, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

One thing that I think that is needed for 1.5.7 is edit throttling. Right now LWtools hits LW upwards of 10 times a minute, which can cause some issues, the same as with a bot doing too many edits at one time. You may want to put in a "wait x seconds" or epm (edits per minute) so that you or I don't flood LW with edits, all at once. Also, I'd like to point out that I personally get a kick out of each new version having a different default artist to look up. I've actually taken to calling (for example) 1.5.6 the "Madonna" edition. I am a simple man, I get excited by small things.
I still do get that doubling thing, albeit less pronounced. It seems like I can do about 4 albums without an issue, but after that the doubling starts up and won't go away until I restart LWtools.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 03:31, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Bug Report! When editing an album 'update' does the same thing as 'overwrite'. Example: one song of the band Stars is in French, so I pre-set it, thinking it would otherwise ignore it, but it just plowed over it and called it English.
Look for, cheers,--Senvaikis (talk) 17:13, 30 October 2008 (UTC) Now (talk) 22:46, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Updating that bug report previous, I was hoping there could be a specialcase exception. If the language is " ", it should be overwritten in 'update' mode. I am finding less and less bugs at this point, so I don't have much else to mention. Let me keep fiddling with it, I'll run it through the paces.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 07:00, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
...'I was hoping there could be a specialcase exception. If the language is " ", it should be overwritten in 'update' mode'... Lol, me too :) See sandbox &, - done yesterday :). --Senvaikis (talk) 20:42, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Just reminder ;)

Hope to see this reminder clean tomorrow (one week). Was not easy to resist temptation to 'broadcast' this reminder...
Do you use Firefox Senv? If you do here's the solution >> (scroll to the bottom).  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 01:23, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Thx, Red, I used your hint, it works; but does it help us to extend our community? I'd never joined it if saw those 'beauties' on every page...--Senvaikis (talk) 12:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Seems to me you are another one who has not seen this >>> LyricWiki_talk:Ads#Ringtones_trial. (Note my last comment at the bottom of page too.)  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 14:47, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks once more for info, Red; and forgive me for not commenting that anymore - I've gave myself a promise not to emphasize any questions, related to LW SOAP WS (I did that mistake at my starting days here). I hope there's no need to explain you how these at first sight different questions are related. I've understood my mistake long before all this RT tizz. Regards, --Senvaikis (talk) 20:20, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Nick Cave

Hope that took care of Nick and all his evil incarnations ;) cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 12:50, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Nope... Seems I wasn't clear enough... Unfortunately must leave for a while, so try to be short: moving artist doesn't move a song, so NCAndTBS contains a lot of same songs of 'NC&TBS' in OS. I was just lookin' for a lazy way of getting rid of OS ;). cu, --Senvaikis (talk) 13:34, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if you asked Echo to do this because he is doing such a great job with SE2, or whether it's because of Batch Move, but sorry to say Senv there simply is no easy way to do what you want to do.
Whilst it is true that admin can batch move songs from one artist to another, we can only do this if the target page does not already exist. (And just how often do you think that holds true, eh? lol) If the target page already exists, comparisons need to be made by a human eye to establish which is the better and most complete page, and therefore which of the two pages it would be best to keep. Thereafter the page has either to be moved to the correct name and the inferior page overwritten, or the page has to be redirected to the correctly named page. Yes I know, a very time consuming task indeed, but as I say, there is no easy way :( I don't know how many song pages are involved, but we could do a few each. I'd be willing to help.
 ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 23:04, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying Red. I think the best way to deal with such situations is that the person who eyeballs the duplicate songs under 2 or more variations of the artist name should put a deletion request on the inferior pages (in many cases the inferior page has bits of info like iTunes that the superior lyrics lack and these two need to be unified). The entire merge/redirect/delete operation can be botified, and that's what I intend to do. (Merge template removed from the superior page at the correct artist namespace, Redirected page have all it's text expect #redir removed, and deleteables deleted). The OS list of the artist (being Senv's main target it seems) will be taken care of once the approp templates are applied and the Janitor (Where is that JANITOR? LOL) won't add them to the OS list again. hth cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 23:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I haven't thought it all this through yet Echo, but yes that certainly does help and my initial reaction (as I'm sure Senv's will be too - lol) is - excellent stuff!! I'm with you on this. As I already said, I'm willing to assist. Just let me know when you're ready to tackle Nick Cave and I'm there. I'm not much good on the bot front unless provided with an Idiots Guide (lol) but my mince pies are still in good order That having been said, they are not quite as good as they were since the overload of red on each LW page... As for Senv? Well I'm sure Senv is just going to be pleased to know that old Nick's going to be done, eh Senv?  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 00:45, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Re Janitor: the MediaWiki upgrade broke his login procedure :( that's why he's been out of action.

Hi, thank both of you. Red said she doesn't know why I asked ES to do that, but at once answered herself - it's not simple! Exactly; if it would be - I'd never asked ES ;). Anyway I'm glad both you agree that NC deserves 'better life'. And I know you both know my 'love' to LW updating interface - I'd better delete all that OS and make a perfect NC page using automatic requests to reliable MB, Amazon, discorg sources... (relax, I know it's a wiki and that's inadmissible.) But even if I did that, - a few days later this page would be 'replenished' again with OS, full of songs, recorded by NC, nc, Nc, nC, cn, cN, etc. etc. Manual managing of all this garbage newer was my dream. Btw, ES - haven't you ever got a strange feeling of doing a Sizyphean job, fighting with SNLI (now - fLetter?) or something similar, knowing that you are fighting not with a problem itself, - just only with it's results? Wouldn't it be better just to solve the problem instead of making millions pseudoedits? That's why I really appreciate your intention to 'botify entire ... operation'. Thanks, Sierra! I was right asking ES, wasn't I, Red? ;) cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 20:03, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

The guy sure has got a good hang on this whole bot thing Senv, so if some of this can be botified then yes I feel sure Echo will find a way.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 02:39, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Hope you are happy with Nick's new Cave. fLetter is over, SNLI is just normal really, not many people care about putting down the language, and just like broken & double redirects it will continue to get populated and de-populated and will need Human eyes to fix. I like the big challanges, but a few errors catch more attention than outright requests for comments and input. Attention seems to be inversely proprtional to Rank ;) Hopefully I will get around to write a Mac version of your utility (if for no one else but myself!) cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 12:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, ES, - my choice was right :). It was interesting to follow your efforts considering redirects, batch movings and mergings. I like that you like challenges; let me tap this your feature in the future ;) Regarding the last challenge you've mentioned - I have some thoughts making such task extremely simple (and less page formatting-dependent), but I feel you know all those thoughts beforehand ... ;). cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 16:23, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Hardly Senv, I'm still learning...I trip on those odd exceptions that you have already coded and debugged, but like you, I won't stress any point too much. Does your utility fetch the entire songpage with all the metadata, or just the lyrics? Is there a screen shot somewhere to see? cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 02:14, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Currently lwt uses object song, having almost all song attributes in it's propertysheet, but not all of them are used (audio, akuma, download, all romanized-attrs etc). You may find some screenshots of utils here. cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 10:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

LOL. NC's Cave is highly populated warren again... I'm givin' up.

You noticed the orphans? That Nick & his Bad Seeds! or is it And his Bad Seeds, I forget ;) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 08:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Ready for Nick Castle? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 10:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
How did you do that?! And what now I must be ready for - there's no OS again!? Ask your boss to raise your salary twice at least :). Thanks,--Senvaikis (talk) 12:35, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Just a Note

Your /LWUtil just created Etta James:Baby, What You Want Me To Do (Live) incorrectly for the second time. Just thought I'd let you know to see if this could be fixed... --WillMak050389 00:00, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I've thought of another thing I'd like to see. being able to paste in a list of song pages (of various artists?) LWtools format them.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 05:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know, Will. That'll help avoiding such bugs in the future, --Senvaikis (talk) 11:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Btw, inspecting the reasons of reported lwt misbehavior exposed some misbehavior of autotemplate: if you click on mentioned link, the new album page will be opened instead of song page, switched by ending "(Live)". Imo it would be easy to modify template to react only on \((\d|\?){4}\). --Senvaikis (talk) 16:37, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

For King: if I understand right your idea - it just can't be realised without radical redesigning of current processing model (based on one artist). But we can discuss that - if you prove expedience of such changes, - i'll make them. I hope you understand that API becomes absolutely useless then...--Senvaikis (talk) 18:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Hate saying "that's impossible", so I made changes, enabling you to drag'n'drop a link of any LW artist or album page onto trackListView. If that's an artist page, then further processing goes using API getArtist. Otherwise page will be parsed to get the list of songs it contains (including artist name). If given list contains a link to the album, then double click on that item loads the song list for that album. That enables processing of such pages as Various Artist compilations, soundtracks or such pages, normally unavailable for API, as Pink Floyd, Frank Sinatra etc. But now, after I've made all these changes and reread your post, I'm not already so sure if that was exactly what you asked for... ;) If my doubts are valid, - it's of your's own making, so next time please be more detailed ;) Btw, I still haven't got any your response regarding ClickOnce App... Looking for your notes about new bugs I've implemented in 1.5.7 :), --Senvaikis (talk) 13:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Actually, my intention of having a mismatched list is to kind of prepare for the day when LWtools can do page ranking. I shuddered at the idea of repeating my traipse through all of the different pages that I've done, and knew there was a collection of reasonably well put up pages on my watchlist. This also allows me to do edit a little more 'my way' on the specialpages.
The clickonce is working great, once I found out how to use it. At the time I wasn't aware that Firefox required the extension. But every update since that last time we talked about it, has been on clickonce.
I'll be testing, as always.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 17:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've been running into some problems. First, the drag and drop described above has not worked for me. I Try to drag and drop, and all I get is the name of the link in the artist field.
Next, I am trying to paste in an album asin because LWtools cannot find the album itself. I've had the problem with both Kevin Drew:Spirit If... (2007) and Suzy Bogguss:Simpatico (1994). I remember that we talked about being able to do that.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 21:44, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me you've missed something. What tab were you in while d/d'ing? Ok, let's do it now. Just now, reading this post, open lwt, activate tab "Tracks". then d/d just from page you are reading one of links you provided onto trackListView. Wiki titles should be filled automatically; so will do iTunes. Then do one of following:

  • paste known asin of album you are editing into combobox "Asin" & click neighboring asin button "Tracks", or
  • find album you are editin on Amazon (e.g. this) and just d/d its address onto same trackListView.

Done. All I'm writing now I've done on my box with the (the same should be successfuly done with any version starting from Let me know results, I'll wait.--Senvaikis (talk) 22:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

While waiting for your response decided to describe one more, third way of getting asin info when LW and Amazon naming are different. Let's take Kevin Drew:Spirit If... (2007) for ex. Both wiki & itunes info you can get in any manner - entering artist name in artist textbox and pressing Get Artist or just d/d'ing this link onto tracklist. But asin info remains empty, because artist name on Amazon is substantially different from LW one: "Broken Social Scene Presents: Kevin Drew". In such cases you can use 'alternative artist name' textbox, which visibility can be togged with checkbox "Alt. Art". If you enter Amazon-style artist name in this textbox and press amz. button "Asins", you'll be done again, the third way already :).
Ok, time to go to bed; seems to me you was more wise and outrun me :)--Senvaikis (talk) 23:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, thank you, both Kevin Drew and the Simpatico album are sorted out to my liking. Sorry I had to ask, but I wasn't getting it on my own.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 00:59, 5 November 2008 (UTC)


You've certainly proven your dedication to the site and if you'd care to have a few new tools at your disposal, it'd be great to have you be a site administrator. You'd be the "new kid on the block", so you'd be in charge of cleaning up the administrator washroom :-] (EchoSierra will be glad to hear that), but other than that it's nice to be able to delete pages and such. Are you willing?    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   03:04, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Kiefer.
That's really stuning offer; yes, I'd care and yes, I'm willing, but being an admin in my 'real' life I treat adminship too serious to say 'yes' now, knowing that I must start my work in a new big project just from the next week. It would be unfair - I just can't guarantee to have enough time for such honourable duty next tree months. I'm very sad about that, and at the same time very pleased by your offer. I hope that will not push a door for me to join your nice team ~3 months later (hope Sierra will forgive me ;)). I promise to do my best as an ordinary user for a while.
Thank all you once more, --Senvaikis (talk) 15:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your answer, and I understand how you'd want to hold off until you've got more time to give. Personally, my view of adminship here is that it's basically a tiny seal of approval that one has shown their dedication to the site, has shown they aren't a hothead, participates in the various discussions that might arise, and knows most of the general ins and outs of the formatting/rules/procedures/etc. It doesn't really give any more authority beyond the fact that admins should be well-versed in the routine areas of the site, and can speak up when procedures and such go astray. The main 2 new abilities that are gained are being able to block vandals/spammers and being able to delete pages. With those abilities does come an added responsibility that you are in some way representing the site. Each of us has our own niches and abilities that are unique and beneficial. I hope that when you feel comfortable with the added responsibility that you'll let me know. Best wishes,    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   19:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for understanding and molification, I'll feel much better now :).
And - Kiefer, Red, Echo, Aq, King, Tec,... : I do know how weighty is your 'tiny seal'. Hope some day to have the same :)--Senvaikis (talk) 21:52, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
There's an adminship with your name on it Senv, so whenever you're ready just let Kiefer know. We will be very glad to have you on board! Good luck with your real life project!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 02:15, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

API and template question

I was reading up recently about your response to Redxx's question about album transclusion on an artist page (here). I was wondering if you might be able to answer a similar question. I am working on many artist and album pages that have featured artists listed after song titles (like T.I. and The Notorious B.I.G.), and it can be very messy. I made a template for this, but I wanted to ask if using it might screw up the API. Could you please take a look at this test page? team atalkctrb 20:15, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi, team a. Your template doesn't break formatting pattern for song link (# '''[[artist:song|songTitle]]'''), so it shouldn't impact API. I've tested this assumption (on Buddy Guy) to validate it. Answer is: your tl doesn't conflict with API (at least current version of API). Regards, --Senvaikis (talk) 22:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for taking a look, and even going to the extent of checking it. I'm going to give it a spin on some artist pages - hopefully it will make a lot of them less cluttered. team atalkctrb 08:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Odd ringtone-related bug

Moved to LyricWiki talk


Sorry that took a while! All albums in lw should have proper footer now, next, album header for all albums, just like Eminem. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 21:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, ES; respect, --Senvaikis (talk) 21:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Joe Satriani

May I ask you a favour to run LWUtil upon Joe Satriani? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 17:12, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Done (songs asins, itunes & albums). Sry for delay - was offline.--Senvaikis (talk) 23:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
As always, Thank you :) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 19:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Album Template

Have you seen the proposed edit to the album template in this discussion? It's going to be a big change to all album pages, so I'd like to know what you think. Comments and criticisms are welcome. team atalkctrb 03:29, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

The Violet problem...

I have gone back through his contributions and noted all affected artists:

...but I hate to think of you doing all them manually. Why don't you put a request on bot portal for star colour to be changed from Violet to Green?  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 13:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC) P.S. Redkr doesn't want to be watcher of these pages and the Code Purple template also needs to be removed from page.

Thanks for solicitude, Red :) As you know, I hate manual editing too, so I hope my LwT will be able to cope with this task. Btw I haven't seen CP in these pages - had you?--Senvaikis (talk) 14:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to be a problem child. I re-read the Violet definitions and agree that they could be changed back. I do, however, think that there could be a designation between a brand new page (Green) and one that has been certified, even if it's not watched.--{{User:Redrkr}} 9:18, 1 December 2008 (EST)
Thanks for this msg, Redrkr. Now, having your agreement, I'll feel much more comfortable:). Happy editing, --Senvaikis (talk) 14:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Lol@problem child Redrkr. Senv, I don't know about others. This was what prompted me to add that to my post >>> [1]
Lol again, Red - take a look at this revision. I think it would be better if you remove CP yourself ;). cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 15:40, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Haa haa yes...but I can explain. At the same time as you started to notice Redrkr's violet stars, so did I. However, whilst I did not know what the problem was, one thing I did know was that violet star also needed a CP. So after I posted on Redrkr's page at >>> 13.27pm on the 23rd November, I then went back and put the CP on page (14.44 pm on 23rd November 2008).  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 20:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Yep, Red, that's exactly how I've conceived the situation :) Just couldn't resist temptation to tease you a little, - forgive me ;). But now, when we've passed a 'violet' period, tell me - don't you see some sense in Redrkr's words? To be honest, mandatory page watching (while certifying lyrics) requirement slightly puzzles me too... I may have been missed some discussions about that again, but forgive me again - "ask-Red" approach is tested optimal way to get any answer for such lazy user as me ;) cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 21:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Hee hee. I like your thinking "ask Red". I understand how frustrating it can be being busy (you are not "lazy") and losing sight of something, so rest assured that I will always point you in right direction/answer such questions if I can.
So in answer to your question, no I don't believe you have missed anything. I don't think such a question has been raised. However, as this case does indeed prove, whilst some users are happy to certify the lyrics, they do not necessarily want to be "Watcher" of the page. It isn't a requirement. Like Jim for example. He certified a number of songs. However he removed himself as "Watcher" of the pages. I'm not sure if I have answered your question but I hope that helps. 14:46, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I Don't Know How, But I Broke It

Hey Senv, I was updating LWTools the last time, and ever since then I get a fatal error on startup. By this point I've completely forgotten where to get a download of LWT. Could I get a link?
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 07:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Check your email; And sorry, King, but be warned - now lwt is even more buggy when ever before - have no time...:(

Bots, Lists & SOAP

As seen in User_talk:Spacejens, User:EchoSierra referred me to you regarding some kind of tool that you supposedly made, allowing parsing of lists somehow. Do you care to elaborate?

Surely I would, but I'm afraid that's not exactly what you are looking for. Btw, I started my activity here very similar like you - from questions about LW SOAP API (1, 2 etc.) and hopes to make it WS-I compliant and awailable to .NET developers. Unfortunately with the lapse of time I realized that this question is some kind of tabu here. Even special subpage, made for this issue, remains untouched from April. I tried to use some functions of REST API, but discovered soon that it's too limited and not perfect too. I'd like to be wrong, but seems to me that WS support isn't included into LW priority tasks list. So after I've realized having a reputation of tiresome 'one-broken-record' player I was forced to accept the situation 'as is', refused asking about that anymore and decided to do what I can do without LW WS. So currently my app, mentioned by ES, uses WS'es, - but not LW WS (Amazon, MusicBrainz, Discogs etc.). All communication with LW goes by HttpRequest/Response , e.g. app just mimics web browser. Knowing you are WS adherent, I predict what you'll say - that's inefficient, that's too page syntax-dependent, that's too time and bandwith consuming and so on. Yes, it is. I'd say even more - it makes almost impossible to make a distributable app, staying operatible for more or less long period of time (too many changes are constantly going in LW). But I hate manual editing even more than making bad programs, knowing they're bad :). My dev. environment - MS Visual Studio 2005. Unfortunately, I haven't time for detailed it's description right now, so, you may want to look for it in my discussions with KingNee, my Sandbox or take a look at some screenshots. If you'll have any questions after that - let me know. Regards, --Senvaikis (talk) 16:18, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Here's the link to screenshots download (last few days my free hosting server on somee is often freezing). And one more, last note: I hope you'll have a better luck trying to reanimate LW SOAP WS, - good luck!
While I am web service fluent, I am not what I would call web service adherent. It is simply a tool, which in this case happens to be very efficient.
Your application screenshot is interesting, but since I am going to develop my tool in Java (and since I don't run MS Windows) I still need to make my own tool for the work I want to be able to perform.
I considered making my tool parsing raw HTTP data, but considering (as you already guessed) that this would be a lot less efficient, I decided to try to influence the API functionality instead. I'll keep doing that for a while, we'll see what happens. If you're interested, watch my user page (I'll surely post there when I make progress, one way or another).
Spacejens 11:20, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Good luck, Spacejens! Looking for good news from you, --Senvaikis (talk) 11:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Re: Doubled language attributes

Hi, thanks for the notice. Do you remember which song or which artist was affected? The bot makes one edit every 20s, they are too many to check them all manually. I look at control samples casually and haven't notived doubled language tags yet. --Hfs·· 22:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Oops, I just notices you mentioned the change on the bot's talk page... I'll answer there. --Hfs·· 22:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Here's one more sample:Christina Aguilera:I Will Be‎--Senvaikis (talk) 22:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Times Tables

{{Additional Albums}} Re@Tom Waits:Little Drop Of Poison Just thought I'd let you know that I believe we are putting this up top of page now, not at bottom. Aqua changed his mind on putting it below after me and Mischko said you couldn't see there were additional albums.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 10:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Red. Agree, especially for cases with 1-3 add. albums. I'd even say that in such cases we don't need templates at all, at least for cases when song appears only on 2 albums (Aqua've put me wise to that). But how about pages with 45 'american horses', capable of dropping your lyrics from screen 2 pages down? Imo for 1-2 additional albums any tl's shouldn't be used; for 3-5 albums add. alb. tl may be placed at top, but if list contains such 'full discography', it would be better to leave it under the lyrics. That's only mho, of course :) --Senvaikis (talk) 12:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
You know Senv, I think you're absolutely right!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 12:58, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
(Edition conflict (glad you think so:)))
Additional notes after visiting Sandman:
  • I liked more Aqua's origin idea without using tl. Hideable list, containing only one position seems not very reasonably to me (I wanted to use more strong expression... but it's not very suitable talking with Red ;)).
  • Now imagine how will go and look the loading of a page with ~40 albums list, especially on slow connection, keeping in mind that this list initially appears in expanded state, and hides itself only on full page loading...
    • Edit: "Fortunately" now, while our LW is so slow-downed, you even don't need to exert your imagination - I've just tested: add. alb. list of A Horse With No Name collapsed 11 s later then lyrics appeared on the page - it was waiting for full loading of 'bannerless' page...
cheers --Senvaikis (talk) 13:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Seeing as you are a pseudo admin (and we have all come to value your opinion) I was hoping for your input on this subject. So could you do me a favour and add a few comments to the discussion Template_talk:Song#Multiple_albums_per_Song when you got a minute please? Thanks.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 14:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for such delayed response, Red, but now I must confess: luckily I hadn't time for quick reposting to your request :). When I've got a free hour for more detailed study of this (and related) discussions, I realized that I need at least a couple of hours just to check what is done and what is gonna be done :). And conclusion is very simple - those guys are too good to need my advice :). Now I'm sure that I made a right choice refraining from adminship, this way (maybe) accelerating their joining to your team. I'm sure they are only starting... Good luck!--Senvaikis (talk) 10:52, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for reply. Like I say, your opinions are valued so when you've got the time please do comment on the ideas put forward so far for this project. And I couldn't resist making a comment here. Merry Christmas!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 16:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Appretiations to team, 6 times 9 & Aquatiki

Just have no words to express my raptures about new wind of changes you've brought into LW. Oh, if at least one guy having your energy could join to Sean helping him with Api...--Senvaikis (talk) 10:18, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

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