2,054,077 Pages


Glad you finally made it through to the other side ;) ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 23:03, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Language to {{SongFooter}}

I saw that you added a language to the {{SongFooter}} of 2Pac:California Love. How did you do that? I can see the comment made by the bot in the edit comment, but I want to understand how you figured that out. team atalkctrb 18:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Ummm, not sure what you mean :) Look up regex on wikipedia. the expression that you saw in the history pages goe like

(-(\|\s*fLetter\s*=[A-Z*]\s*) +|language = \n\1))

in plain (but loosely translated) English it means find (in a song) an instance of fLetter (given that I know all songs have fLetter and it is filled) and before the found fLetter, insert a language label. I am working from the SNLI list. regex is available in the module of Look at RedxxBot for explanation of what "\s", "*", "\n", "\1" means. Disclaimer: regex is dangerous! and unlike Aqua, I'm not a good teacher! ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ()18:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

RedxxBot looks like a good place to look for figuring some of this stuff out. I gather that there's no centralized location for LW-specific pywkipedia commands? Also, when you say "regex is dangerous", do you simply mean that small mistakes in the syntax could have unexpected consequences? I'll still be fine using it if I screen the results before accepting them, right? team atalkctrb 20:02, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Find pywikipedia commands here. As for danger, if you choose to select to apply all changes without individual confirmation (when you are applying edits to large number of files), you may end up with a long list of things to undo! You may have noticed that another bot has enterd "itunes label+ itunes data" in ADDITION to existing "itunes label". Not catastrophic, but something we'd want to avoid. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 20:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
ES, I beg my pardons if I'm wrong (once more - I'm unfamiliar with python syntax notation), but are you sure your pattern will work for cases, when fLetter parameter is preceded by language one?--Senvaikis (talk) 07:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
You are correct Senv, I managed to double enter language label (similar to what happened with itunes) Part of the learning experience is manually fixing bot created messes! I'd be grateful for any improvements you may suggest ;-) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ()07:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd be glad to, if I knew python... As you know, I'm working in .NET, and M$ as always brings it's own 'improvements'... :). So I'll just try to retell 'in broken English' the logic of universal pattern I'm using for language parameter managing. You should search for: "{{SongFooter", followed by any count of any characters, including \n, folowed by "(\| *language *= *([^|}]*))", followed again by any count of any characters but [}] and ending by "}}". Take note that pattern contains two parts enclosed in parenthesis, so if match is found, it contains at least three capture groups: first one - entire SongFooter, second - entire language parameter with its value, and third one - language value itself. So algorithm of your operation is very simple - if there are no matches - you have nothing to do with such song - it needs a footer for a kickof. Otherwise, if second group is empty - you just insert a new language parameter with your value. Otherwise, if third group is empty - you just add a new value for a language. Otherwise (if you are intended to overwrite current values) you compare the current language value to one you wanna set - if they differ - you make your replace. Pfff.... it's harder to describe than to do, you'll see :). Cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 09:49, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Knowing your habit to reply fast I can only suspect that my 'broken English' was broken overmuch to understand, so I decided to add here a sample of dotnet-style regex pattern we were speaking about - may be it'll be easier to convert into python (perl?) notation: "{{SongFooter[\s\S]*\|\s*(language\s*=\s*([^|}]*))\s*[\s\S]*}}". Note that this pattern is suitable for managing other foter parameters as well. BTW, last part of pattern is not necessary if you don't need entire songfooter text; hth, --Senvaikis (talk) 15:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

No Senv, the reason I didn't respond earlier was I was still editing my reply since I saw your penultimate post...meanwhile I got sidetracked in finding regex documentation, testing patterns in terminal....... Thank you very much, your earlier description was very clear.. I had missed the capture group chapter at school:) You basically explained the logic of how to preserve any label or label+data group for later insertion into a song footer template for reinsertion as part of the replacement string. So in the extreme case one would need to preserve the existing album, video, audio, asin, itunes and language . I will post here later with results. Hopefully the other bot drivers will find your (and Aqua's) knowledge and clear descriptions as useful as I do :) cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ()15:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

iTunes Data

How do bots add things like itunes data? Would a person who added that have to find all the itunes information and save it as a file and use that file, or are there scripts to do that too? I noticed that some of the values for the iTunes parameter for pages I'm editing has been filled in, but I'd like to fill in the remainder by bot, if possible. I don't want to burden you with a lot of questions, but you could you point me in the right direction? team atalkctrb 20:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

There is an itunes link maker [1]... Now one may use JavaScript, AppleScript, vb, etc. to hit the page with the song title and/or artist and fetch the result, either in batch mode to compile a list to be inserted in lw later or one at a time, essentially same as right clicking on a song in itunes store and "copy itunes URL"... the exact details depends on how you want to go about it. I'll ask Senv to peek over here if he has time. I know he does something like this already. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ()21:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Sierra asked me to comment here my way of "doing iTunes" in LW, but generaly speaking he have explained almost all already. Yes, I'm using iTunes Link Maker too, loading this page with HttpRequest and parsing response in memory; usually I'm organising my searches by-album. There are several nuances that should be mentioned regarding iTunes; first two reported here, both are easy-to-manage programmaticaly. The more interesting question is what should be done in case when iTunes parameter is filled with a value, which doesn't match one found by your search. First natural desire is to replace it by one you've found. But here we must keep in mind that the same (in LW terms) song may have several legitimate iTunes values, corresponding to different releases. So for a while I leave all filled values 'as is', filling only empty iTunes (though I do know that there are a lot of wrong or dead-links here). BTW the same problem should be considered speaking about song asin parameter too. So my scenario of filling albums, asins & iTunes for songs of particular artist is: scroll song list by albums in order of release date and fill empty parameters (without overwriting filled one). I'm overwriting these parameters only for some well-known (for me) artists and releases, only after manual rechecking that replace will be correct. I'd be glad to use some more civilized method for that, so thanks in advice if someone could share it. Regards, --Senvaikis (talk) 06:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Slow your roll

You might wanna consider adding -sleep:2 -pt:20 in your code, in order to slow down the rate of changes. I'm hitting the server three time a minute, the average human edits are two or three a minutes and you're at about eight a minute. I think the server might get bogged down if we're all pommeling it too hard. Just a thought. --Aquatiki - T - E 07:23, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Ouch! sorry, done! Now that I have your attention....What makes songs that Do have fLetter show up in Cat:NofLetter? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 05:17, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Category Faults

We've been having all kinds of category issues since the upgrade. (Do you know what "touching" is? It's when you click 'edit', do nothing, and then save a page). Are the cats still wrong after touching/saving the page? --Aquatiki - T - E 05:52, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

You bet, The cat prob gets fixed when a the page (that shouldn't be in NofLetter to begin with) is touched via the browser. Ok, I will try it with bot on SNLI, s l o w l y ;) Thanks++! ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 05:59, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Well, documentaionπ says : "When a category is added to a much used template, running will add the existing records to the category." also "When a record needs to be changed in order to refresh all kinds of relations, can do the work." also "This script is deprecated and has been moved to the project's archive." So really this problem has to be fixed server side, and the necessary fix has to be applied periodically. Comments? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 06:26, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
I've read that too, but I don't buy it. I use all the time. There are all kinds of things in mediawiki that don't update like they should and is very necessary. Trust me, I run a wiki too and it is an indispensable tool. --Aquatiki - T - E 07:14, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Ok then, so what we have is a case of stale relationships that can be fixed by touch which is no longer available. Where next? You got a copy of touch to pass my way, I still have cpu cycles to spare ;) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 07:29, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
If you haven't already, see this: [2]...Broken By Design? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 07:55, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Wow. That was a depressing read. ... Isn't still distributed in the archive/ subfolder of pywikipedia? --Aquatiki - T - E 14:48, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
LOL I looked everywhere but there! it is in archive! ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () EchoSierra 14:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't really know what the discussion is about, but instead of "touching" (Aquatiki is a *nix user? :P) doesn't purging work just as well (add ?action=purge or &action=purge to the url). --Mischko Talkicon EsperanzaIcon (wishing happiness, health and heaps-of-fun for 2009 to all my friends here at LyricWiki!) 15:10, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi Mischko, It's about things happening server side, the page refrenced above pretty much explains the problems we've been having for the past 6-8 weeks, with SNLI and NofLetter. btw Aqua, I downloaded a version of touch off the net and fixed the last few hundred of NofLetter by touch, you had it dead on, as usual... ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () EchoSierra 15:18, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

language=English to {{Song Info}}

Hold on, you're adding "language = English" to {{Song Info}}, the checklist on the talk page - Talk:The Notorious B.I.G.:Gimme The Loot. Shouldn't you be adding it to the bottom of {{SongFooter}}? I'd imagine that you just made a shortcut rather than spelling out "\{\{SongFooter". User:Team a/Singature 20:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm working on Songs Needing Language Identification, didn't expect talk pages to show up in there! ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 20:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... looks like {{Song Info}} adds them too, if the language value is "unknown". User:Team a/Singature 21:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

nesting lyrics tags

ES, check this; for some reasons lyrics tags have got doubled.

I caught that earlier, only ran that code on Q Songs, hopefully not many left like that... ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 21:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


Even bots need to make sure their spelling is correct. -- 6x9 (Talk) 21:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

And here your bot slapped a SongFooter on an album. -- 6x9 (Talk) 21:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks 6x9, Lucky me, you are watching over. Now I owe King an apology too, I slapped that footer as a test, and then thought it didn't work! which it does, on Song pages, duh! cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 22:31, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of "Ahem", why does your bot add a language parameter together with AlbumFooter? -- 6x9 (Talk) 22:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I just noticed this discussion, so I thought I'd say: it would either be {{SUBST:SF3|language}}, OR {{SUBST:SF2|{{SUBST:ARTIST}}|{{SUBST:SONG}}|{{SUBST:SONGFLETTER}}}}. I '''could''' make {{SUBST:SF2|||language}} work, but it doesn't now.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 22:37, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Recent "typo fix" to Rick Springfield:Jessie's Girl

I didn't find another edit that did this, but thought I'd bring it to your attention...just in it destroyed the page's verse/chorus separations.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   05:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Removing line breaks...

...isn't always a good idea: in this case it messed things up. (Inserting a blank line instead isn't an option here, since it disrupts the song numbering, and using #* doesn't look all that great either.) -- 6x9 (Talk) 19:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that was meant for song pages with every line of lyrics terminated with <br/> ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 20:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Junk tracks

The only problem with removing "junk tracks " from album listings is that there is no evidence to show these tracks ever existed. If these are left on page people will know they need correcting.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 01:56, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Underscores and nbsp

Replacing underscores with spaces is tricky: external links tend to get broken, and __NOTOC__ stops working too. Non-breaking spaces are sometimes necessary for layout purposes (see here or here), so I'd prefer you didn't replace them. -- 6x9 (Talk) 05:21, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Certainly, __THINGYS__ should not be ruined, but the McDonald example does not make you case: there is no way to know what the user's screen or font size is, so no number of nbsp's will produce a predictable result! Certainly, eliminating underscores is generally a good thing, and it would be better to list negative examples instead of banning it outright. --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 05:28, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
@6: Well , you saw the screenshot. I'm afraid the Birdman example is equally hideous (with all the color by numbers goofiness), I don't think we want that neat stuff in people's itunes libraries. I fetched Birdman with AppleScript and it looks gross, and that is exactly what SOAP returns, which means any mark up of any sort is best kept out of the lyrics box. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 06:40, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


Just if you haven't noticed yet: sample. Happy NY :),--Senvaikis (talk) 15:19, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Fix is sent, No eggnog for S2E2 then...Happy NY. cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 17:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Only now noticed your comment: "Senv Consistency Plz". ???--Senvaikis (talk) 13:08, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
many spacing variations of star+color, and many variations of <line break> ;) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 13:25, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Something inadmissible? Can I ask you be more explicit?--Senvaikis (talk) 13:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Nothing inadmissable, just consistency in "{{Song|" format, that's why I only noted it in the summary.  :) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 14:27, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
The funiest detail here is that LWT was trained to surround "=" by spaces while adding stars, and it does that in very consistently manner. Just I thought it's the most acceptable and prevalent formatting style in LW. If I was wrong - let me know, and I'll 'retrain' LWT :). Cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 15:20, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
In that case, over half a million song pages were edited with "star=Color" instead of "star = Color" inconsistently. I wonder if "{{Song|" is one place where extra spaces can be avoided, for the purpose of consistency example:[3] cheers ;) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 15:36, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 :) ok, if such your answer should be treated as supreme argument, I'll change LWT to meet this requirement; (was going to provide my opinion, but changed my mind ;)). good night, --Senvaikis (talk) 21:56, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

S2E2 is being overzealous

I've been adding green stars to black star pages lately and I've noticed new ones popping up that S2E2 has edited with "dupe GS" I assume there was more than one green star for some reason and it removed them all. Just an FYI -- RainbowDragon 21:15, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

No assumptions, check the page's histoy next time. happy editing ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 21:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry. As they say, "If you assume you make an *ass* out of *u* and *me*" My bad. What does dupe GS mean? RainbowDragon 21:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
RainbowDragon hugs da bot to apologize :-) RainbowDragon 21:50, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Typo fixes on Susan Werner's (Why Is Your Heaven) So Small

Hi! FYI, the lack of uppercase i's on this track was deliberate on my part - it reflected the actual formatting from the CD booklet. Formatting is always a tricky issue for me, and generally I will defer to the formatting from the booklet over "correct" usage. If that's the wrong stance to take, let me know and I will change the errors of my ways <grin> Thanks! Steve 17:46, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

There are thousands of pages that need bot edits, you can bring up the rating of any page to bronze or higher to let the bot know to skip over it. cheers and happy editing ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 18:50, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I've always thought..

that "r" is a real nice letter...maybe "s"...dunno...undecided ;) ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 08:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


S2E2 has been fixing some ‘typos’ in a few songs created by me today. There are two categories of fixing being done. One is where a line break is inserted between the <(/)lyric(s)> tags and the body of the text itself—an oversight on my part.

However, the other thing that’s being ‘fixed’ are my apostrophes. I generally (=always, when I can) use typographic apostrophes, not typewriter apostrophes; but S2E2 doesn’t seem too fond of this, and has been changing »‘«s and »’«s into »'«s. Is there a particular policy on this (and if so, where?) on LyricWiki? I wouldn’t want to go against LW’s policies, of course, but I’d also rather not orthographic correctness or detail if possible. Oisín 23:42, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

There was a discussion here back in Novemeber, and so far you are the only contributor who objected. I'd suggest setting the rating of the pages to Bronze or higher, so they would be exempt from corrections by bot. hth ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 00:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Typographic apostrophes aren't the wiki standard, and LyricWiki follows the Wikipedia guidelines with regard to apostrophes and quotation marks. See here for Wikipedia's Manual of Style.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   03:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for that link. I'll bite my tongue and use typewriter apostrophes, then. I'll start using "regular quotes" for cited text, too, rather than guillemets. :) Oisín 15:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Something new in 'consistency' requirements?

Hi, ES. Would you be so kind to explain the goal of currently running massive replaces job ("="->"= ", commented as "fLetter+Song Fix")? Is that some new 'consistency' rule I don't know? If this rule is mandatory, why it's being applied only to FL & Song? If it's not - what for are those multi-thousand edits then? And - should that be treated as some standard for future edits? tia, --Senvaikis (talk) 09:16, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Those are the lw built in magic words: SONGFLETTER & SONG, as applied to any newly created page. cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 18:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Magic or not, but it looks more like vain server spamming--Senvaikis (talk) 18:26, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
You can take a look at categories: "Songs fLetter" and digest? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 18:27, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Yep, seems I was right about Beureaucrat... ;)--Senvaikis (talk) 19:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Far from it! However you may want to apply (whose?) consistency rules Here ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 21:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC) <it's not the indentations>
I am very confused about this too. Most of these "fLetter+Song Fix" edits don't appear to be changing anything. Others such as this are replacing correct links with incorrect links. ?  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 22:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Incorrect Link to which entity? the external links? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 22:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
must be 6's turn now, (get the email?) in Jack Bruce:There's A Forest:"a" or "A" is treated the same by external sites....
Tip: Category:Songs W, page one, look for pattern ":T"... counted 60+ in the first column ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 23:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC) ignore the indentation ;)

Ok, so you're correcting fLetter for all song titles beginning with the word "The"? Ok well that's great, but what isn't great is changing the capitalisation of the song title in song footer. Because as you can see from the following, although "a" or "A" may be treated the same by some external sites, it is not treated the same by MusicBrainz: Jack Bruce:There's A Forest. Here's another example Lordi:The Kids Who Wanna Play With The Dead. They will all be the same where song title contains words like "the" and "a".  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 23:53, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

except that the url examples you present are not the one that lw geneartes ... or you may set the handlearguments value to 0. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 00:19, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
True, but why change it when people have deliberately changed the line to reflect a more grammatically correct or more official name. And this still doesn't explain why you are touching every page, even if it doesn't have a problem with fLetter. I know pywikipedia bot's doesn't give you much flexibility but I don't think that warrants an edit on every song page just for those songs starting in "The" when it really is such a simple thing to check if the song starts in "The" or even if the old fLetter isn't the same as the new {{SONGFLETTER}}
Special:Contributions/S2E2 shows 50contribs in 5 mins, so 10 edits a min.LYRIC-Humbug wordsdeeds 04:40, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
I am (have been) touching every song page to refresh their relationships to detect all sorts of problems, those are the psuedo edits that you don't (didn't, won't) see. The magic words use the SongName of PageName exactly as is, so the pages that collected up in Category:Songs SONGFLETTER will be dealt with in a seperate run of the bot. hth ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 04:59, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Isn't that what the job queue does? You're touching every song page so that they "jump the queue" and are updated straight away. Can't you just let the job queue run it's course? And that doesn't explain the edits that are simply adding 2 spaces. And doesn't change the fact that your undoing people's deliberate changes in Song footers. ♫ LYRIC-Humbug wordsdeeds 06:07, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The Icelandic connection: Consistency Requirements + Template Magic + Job Queue

[4] & [5] ;) hth ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 19:51, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

S2E2's edit counts as you see is for entairtainment purposes only, don't believe them ;) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 19:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, highly entertaining :-) — 6x9 (Talk) 04:23, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Like Senv said, burecracy, see LyricWiki:Page Names ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 06:18, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Let's see… First letter of every word capitalised? Check. Song part of the page name otherwise as close to how the song title appears on the back cover? Check. (If you don't believe me, you can head over to and download the back cover.)
BTW, doesn't "touching" a page mean saving it without actually having changed it? That way it's still refreshed (or rebuilt or whatever), but no edit will appear in the history. At least that's how I understood it… (IIRC Aqua mentioned a script once that Sean can run that does this for ALL pages… maybe you could ask one of them?) — 6x9 (Talk) 13:06, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
SE, I wasn't intended to meddle into this no more, but you managed to make too many errors for such a short sentence (I don't mean bureaucracy - it's a very complicated word for me too ;)):
  • sad if you didn't understand I was little sarcastic denominating you a bureaucrat - I was more serious speaking about spamming...
  • You are resending us to LyricWiki:Page Names, - but have you read this Page Naming policy yourself? Where have you found a single word saying that song/album link in SF must be capitalized exactly as the page title?
In such situations I always suppose I just don't know something, - some higher-level logic, explaining why things appearing wrong to me are good really. Then I'm asking someone who can explain me this higher-level logic. If answer leaves me uncomprehending - then either I'm stupid, or answering person wanted to make me feel stupid, and I'm not happy in neither case. But I'm sure you didn't want me to feel so - maybe you are just too busy now...:). cheers, your friend --Senvaikis (talk) 12:32, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Senv, re names in footer see Album help page, that note has been there for ages btw. I have also now added a similar note to Song help page.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 00:23, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

More entertainment… Suddenly, Category:Songs Needing Footer Attention has become populated again… — 6x9 (Talk) 14:46, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I told you to beware of colons…6x9 (Talk) 21:24, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

2.5 million job queue last time (2 weeks ago?) + 1.7 million job queue this time = +4,000,000 hits on the server and result is: fLetter categories are out of order still.... was that some sort of useless spamming of the server? Did the job queue and templates find the unranked pages (songs/ artists?) ummm, no. If our magic words are inadequate then let's change that. There's about 500 pgaes in Songs SongFLETTER that don't fit the logic of {{SONG magic word, due to time value after song name (4:22), (live), (demo), (skit), etc, or multiple colons in song name. Why not come up with a convention to address such issues? Meanwhile the pagination in fLetter categories is still out, and merely touching those categories does not solve the problem, (You have a bot Red, go for songs Y, small category, see if you can fix the song order). What you don't addresss which the bot IS addressing is thousands of songs that have the totally wrong name in their SF (because song from page name was totally different from song in SF), "A Walk on the Wild Side" vs. "A Walk On The Wild Side" is your prime concern? So take a look at "Category Songs T" and "Category Songs N" to see what it is the bot is doing that template magic and job queue does not, did not and will not address.
if Song fLetter categories are broken by design, then state it clearly, because for finding misfiled pages, pages with wrong fLetter or duplicate songs, that is our best tool (seperating the wheat from the chaff)
I am sure if some magic exists that can fix the fLetter categories (see Songs Y, B, J etc. ), someone will raise their voice ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 01:14, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
example Category Songs T, fixed by bot, pages in correct order, now seperating wheat from chaff, EASY, because songs are in proper order:
  1. Bob Marley & The Wailers:Them Belly Full (But We Hungry) (But We Hungry )
  2. Bob Marley & The Wailers:Them Belly Full (But We Hungry) (But We Hungry)
  3. Bob Marley & The Wailers:Them Belly Full (But We Hungry)
∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 01:23, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
example, go to the bottom of last page of Songs J, look at the three songs
  1. Vypsaná FiXa:Jak Bubnuje Charlie
  2. Vypsaná FiXa:James
  3. Vypsaná FiXa:Je Mi To Jedno
notice anything? open pages in edit mode. cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 01:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Eh? I am so confused. What is it that you are trying to accomplish, exactly? I mean this in all seriousness, because I find your note above to be indecipherable with regards to meaning. I looked up the Bob Marley examples on this page, and they are in the same order that you have them listed above. If you are trying to somehow get them in the correct order, then Bob Marley & The Wailers:Them Belly Full (But We Hungry) should be above the other two. (Title should be above Title with anything after it.) I'm not sure why it isn't automatically this way, however. If you are somehow trying to help get things in their correct order, how is this happening?
With the Songs J example (here), they all are missing SongFooter and all have the Category:Songs J hardwired. I'm not sure what your point is with this example, though. A little more clarity and transparency with what you are doing would be nice to avoid any further errors and misunderstandings.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   01:58, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Sorry Echo but I don't understand what you mean. Do you want me to revert all the recent edits you made by doing this "fix" thing inappropriately to the songs now in Category:Songs SONGFLETTER, i.e. replace the valid info, fLetters, song names that were there before? And yes those last three songs you mentioned have no song footers. I still don't understand your point though. Maybe someone else does. I am very tired.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 02:10, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflic) @kiefer: the examples of Bob Marley in Songs T and Vypsana in songs J illustarte that when the fLetter categories are in order as defined in the template (which 6 changed to fix a bug that the bot found), then similarly names songs by the same artist follow each other (bob Marley) and songs with various problems
(lacking SF, mismatch btwn fLetter and Song) fall at top or bottom of category. T & J categories were already processed by bot.
@Red: can you apply same logic to all the songs in SongfLetter: see
  1. Bobo In White Wooden Houses:Aside Of The Road
  2. Bobo In White Wooden Houses:I Don't Know
  3. Bobo In White Wooden Houses:I Wanna Keep You On My Side
  4. Bobo In White Wooden Houses:My Stoned Baby & Me
  5. Bobo In White Wooden Houses:These Words Behind
  6. Bobo In White Wooden Houses:Troublesome Desire
  7. Bolt Thrower:Tank (Mk.I)
  8. Bon Jovi:I Talk To Jesus (Demo)
  9. Brian Robbins:I'd Rather Be A Dog
  10. Broken Social Scene:Major Label Debut (Fast)
  11. Bruce Springsteen:Tougher Than The Rest
Don't some need merge/redirect, or rename? are there duplicates? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 02:26, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Example from songsSongFletter: Casey Bennetto:Antony Green needs a revert? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 02:35, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Another one The Easybeats:I'll Make You Happy? revert? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 02:37, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes some of the songs you have mentioned above and that are in Category:Songs SONGFLETTER do need redirecting/renaming I agree. What they didn't need however was their fLetter and song name removed.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 02:57, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm still completely unsure as to what you are trying to do. (The explanation wasn't much of one, I'm afraid.) The two examples you gave did, indeed, need reverting. So, as far as I can tell, you are using a sledgehammer when a ballpeen is needed. Using a chainsaw instead of a scalpel.
Frankly, this is becoming a pattern. As I recently mentioned to Senvaikis, a person becomes an admin partly because their edits are seen as being trustworthy. Lately, your edits haven't been particularly trustworthy. They have tended to be partially destructive. You start site-wide projects without discussion and then get offended when others don't see what you are up to and call you on what certainly appear to be damage and errors. Asking essentially "Hey, you got a better plan?" after the fact just underlines that discussing these things should have taken place earlier.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   04:54, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Ok, all stopped.. the subject of out of order fLetter categories is to be reveiewed another time/place. My apologies ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 05:16, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


Hi, ES. Can I ask you about the reasons for such 'edits'? Batch editions, just removing extra spaces, should have some reasoning (more serious than subjective distaste for redundancy :)). Have I missed some discussion where such cleanup was promoted to formatting policy? tia, --Senvaikis (talk) 14:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

It also removes the boilerplate texts for hometown & ALBUM,, replaces _ with space, which didn't show up on that particular edit ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 14:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I do believe this job does some other, more useful things, but my question was about this particular part of job. So, is that a part of approved formatting policy? If so, I should change lwt settings, 'cause I hate edit wars and don't want to let lwt reedit your job :). Now it's instructed for space-padding of footer/header parameters, alligning them to the longest one. If that's illegal - just tell me. Otherwise I'd recomend to discuss this issue in more public way to prevent unintended "edit wars". cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 14:46, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
create a new test artist page, and tell me what you think of the spacing of pipes and params and eqiual signs, ;) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 14:52, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I can say only that your manner of explaining is veeery special :). Should I understand your answer as the end of discussion? And what this example must prove? That autogenerated page is formatted in contradiction to the template example, given as a standard for ArtistHeader? Then I can recomend you to create a new song, named as "SomeArtist:SomeTitle (live)", as more evident sample, showing that autogenerated page shouldn't be treated as a benchmark ;). But I'd like to be more constructive, and ask you for the same.--Senvaikis (talk) 15:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
The artist Header template is an example of the available parameters for use in the artist header, notice that it contains parameters that are only used in few cases (e.g. romanized artist). The template is not an example/standard of how many spaces should be inserted between label & = & param, the spacing was probbaly left haphazard like that because nobody ever bothered to clean it up, just like most contributors never remove boilerplate texts about artist hometown & ALBUM TITLE etc.
As for what should be taken as a bench mark, the autogenerated song template uses <lyrics>, but AutoGenerator uses <lyric>, and which does lwt use and why?
The bot is doing exactly what I do by hand, except that cleaning up the spaces by hand is too mind numbing, like replacing underscores with spaces, so the bot does it. If you do recall, Aqua went thru every page in lw with bot doing the simplest edit, replacing _ with space. Given the current state of param duplication....any other edit best left to the duplicators.
+98% of newly created artist pages will have the spacing that you see if you create a test artist page, would lwt be in conflict with that? I'm not sure where you end the discussion, where did it end? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 15:43, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Another note, If/when Janitor comes back and it hasn't been updated, it will create new artist pages with only a wiki template at top and Hometown template at bottom, both of which are obsolete, at which point, S2E2 will update such pages to the standard as per the auto generated template, with the params, empty or not, and with the same spacing (params like pic, caption, romanizedArtist etc. are for human editors to insert). This edit may be in contradiction to somebody else's taste. the discussion continues, this is a talk page :) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 16:29, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
You want to say, that now I should change lwt behavior according to autogenerated page format? Then for artist it must use only surrounding "=" by spaces, but for albums and pages - space-padded alligning? Where have you found such rules? And why don't you agree that would be much better to accept some agreement, common for all pagetypes and all editors. It shouldn't be mandatory, of course, but surely it would reduce amount of vain pseudoedits for your bot. Confused, --Senvaikis (talk) 16:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't the best solution be to simply leave it alone? How many spaces there are around the "=", or whether or not there is a space between pipe and parameter name, changes nothing except how it looks in edit mode. If there are many parameters (e.g. SongFooter), aligning them by using spaces for padding makes things easier for the human eye, but editing a page just to change that is really unnecessary. A standard for that would be nice, but it's not high on my priority list. And so far I haven't seen any users starting edit wars about this, which is what Red seems to fear… — 6x9 (Talk) 16:50, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Oh, so artists will be hand edited because otherwise it will cause an edit war. makes perfect sense. thanks guys  :) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 17:13, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Erm… not quite sure what you mean… Dunno why any of this should lead to an edit war, either way… LWT only changes pages when it adds/updates parameters, right? So if it adds/deletes some spaces or rearranges the order of some parameters along the way doesn't really matter. If S2E2 could be instructed to only change a page when this change leads to a difference outside of edit mode (deleting tl:Hometown or such), then there won't be any edit wars. Or am I missing something? — 6x9 (Talk) 17:22, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
EchoSierra, as 6x9 said, having the equal signs all in a row makes it easy to visualize and examine the information as an editor. To a bot it doesn't mean anything, but to a blood-and-flesh editor, the spaces are a welcome thing. To remove them is short-sighted. Did you discuss these changes in the Community Portal? Well, then, don't be surprised that your actions get questioned and problems are found. Discuss then act. Fewer problems.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   00:33, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
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