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SOTD June 30, 2010

Hi KillerClown! I'm just here to tell you that your nomination of Bill Withers:Lean On Me has won Song of the Day for June 30, 2010!
Thanks for nominating a song and for contributing to LyricWiki!
-ÜberBot 07:00, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Eminem - Infinite

What's going on with the album art? It's showing up as a photo of a record rather than the album cover, and I can't get it to revert. -- LYRIC-DarthNemesis 07:45, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

That is what I was trying to figure out, it was deleted after someone uploaded a new cover with an incorrect file name (so the original wasn't linked anymore), when I attempted to update the old file with a new image it locked me into the old image, and I tried to revert twice, yet it still displays the old image. I intend on getting with an admin a little later today (it's 4AM here) and getting this fixed.ҚιļļεяСļоωη 07:50, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
Edit to clarify & log:
The CD image is the original file (though I don't recall uploading it the site says I did). Someone uploaded a new file named Eminem_-_infinite2.jpg (which will need to be deleted now and probably will be automatically). When the new file was uploaded, the links that pointed to that CD image were changed, leaving the old file with nothing pointing to it, and 6 x 9 deleted it. When I attempted to upload a new version of the file, it warned me the file had been deleted etc, I clicked upload anyway (obviously) and when the page loaded it still was displaying the CD image as the current image, I attempted to revert at that point, and it still did not update.
Hi both,
You aren't alone, having a trouble with images - take a look here and don't waste your time for a while :). Let's hope wiki team will fix the problem soon. Happy editing, --Senvaikis (talk) 11:53, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

Bush:Distant Voices / [untitled]

There are two songs on this track. The first is titled "Distant Voices" and the second is a hidden track that isn't titled at all. I presented this as "Distant Voices / [untitled]". The slash suggests the two separate songs and untitled in editorial brackets suggests that the name isn't titled "untitled" but it is untitled. This is as the track is titled on musicbrainz. See a discussion here: -- Rossetyler 05:11, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

Then I would think you should include the Untitled part of that track (since it's all 1 track on the album anyway) on the lyrics page of the Distant Voices track, you can even split the <lyrics> tags between the two and clarify that it's the Untitled part, later when I have time I can look into this further.ҚιļļεяСļоωη 05:29, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have been more clear. Perhaps changes should be made to the song page as you suggest but I was talking about the change you made to the song page link on Bush:Razorblade Suitcase (1996). I think the link was much better as it was -- Distant Voices / [untitled] -- as opposed to what you changed it to -- Distant Voices (Untitled Track) --. As it was, it presented the notion of two songs on one track - one titled (Distant Voices) and one not. --Rossetyler 05:39, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
I got what you were saying, I don't think anything special should be done to the link itself, it just should be clarified (kind of in the way I did), I have edited the album/artist pages again, tomorrow (or possibly slightly later this week) I will hit an admin up and see what exactly their opinion is, mine is that it is 1 single track on the album (album which lists it as 1 track with only 1 name) and should have only 1 page that lists the full set of lyrics (or 2 sets in this case). For an example of what I'm talking about (with multiple lyrics sets/sections) see Eminem:Paul. ҚιļļεяСļоωη 21:39, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
But the lyrics on the Bush:Distant Voices page are for the Distant Voices part of the track only. There are no lyrics for the [untitled] part - it is an instrumental. Perhaps there should be a Bush:Distant Voices page, a [[Bush:[untitled]]] instrumental page and a [[Bush:Distant Voices / [untitled]]] combined page. For example, see the last track on Stone Temple Pilots:Purple (1994). -- Rossetyler 23:00, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
That's not a bad solution, my problem with that is the title "[untitled]" for a page name, since this track (unlike the STP album page) does not have a unique name for that part of the track, it needs to be given some kind of name, like the hidden track was for STP. I have not had much free time the past week or two, especially the last few days, may need to look into the guidelines that specify untitled track names.ҚιļļεяСļоωη 04:05, October 19, 2010 (UTC)
AFAIK, LW lacks guidance for this and many other things. For such things, I typically borrow guidance from musicbrainz. In this case, Note that this guidance happens to use this very same track as an example! Using this guidance, the name the untitled song is [untitled] and the title for the track is Distant Voices / [untitled].

My Name Is

 You say that it doesn't say "have sex in junior high". I have listened to a dirty and a clean version of the song.

Dirty=My English teacher wanted to have sex in junior high. Problem was my English teacher was a guy

Clean=My English teacher wanted to flunk me in junior high. Thanks alot, next semester I'll be thirty-five

 Also, in the dirty version it says, "Extra-terrestrial, killin' pedestrians, raping lesbians, while they screamin' "Let's just be friends!"

while in the clean, it says "Extra-terrestrial, running over pedestrians, while they screamin' at me, "Let's just be friends!" Mace170 19:37, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

What dirty version are you listening to? The YouTube "dirty" version is completely different than what either of us say. My lyrics are based on the uncensored album version of this song.ҚιļļεяСļоωη 07:13, November 9, 2010 (UTC)

I'm listening to the one on YouTube!The youtube address/identification i saw was 19:22, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Well apparently that is 'as heard' on the CD Curtain Call, so in this case what needs to be done is a second <lyrics> section clarified as heard on such (see Eminem:Paul for reference). My lyrics are AS HEARD on the original (first release) of this song, on the album The Slim Shady LP, and as such should remain as the full lyrical display. See this YouTube video for the original from the SSLP album. I will edit the page and get it prepared for you to add the different lyrics to if you would like, I'm not personally going to bother with that because I'm happy with the original version. :P ҚιļļεяСļоωη 07:14, November 19, 2010 (UTC)


why do you insist on putting the commas in? even the official lyrics don't have them, except for 'another promise, another seed'--where a comma is appropriate. Lyrics never have commas just because the singer pauses. Commas change the meaning, and in this case, make no sense. Julywane 14:20, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

Commas change the meaning of SENTENCES/PARAGRAPHS, not lyrics. Lyrics are not sentences or paragraphs, grammar rules do not apply to lyrics. Those commas represent vocal pauses, at no place do I see any of the rules saying not to represent vocal pauses, only states "minimal end-of-line punctuation". In fact one song I edited (adding in commas to represent vocal pauses) I showed to Sean and he said that was the way he preferred to do it. So that is why I do, and will continue to insert commas where vocal pauses are.ҚιļļεяСļоωη 21:52, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
Since when do grammar rules not apply to lyrics? Since when do vocal pauses have to be represented everywhere? "However, it is important to keep in mind that all commas need a pause, but not all pauses need a comma" [1]. How can there be no comma in the sentence "here I go, it's my shot"? [2] The Other Saluton 12:24, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
Because it's not a sentence, it's a lyric.ҚιļļεяСļоωη 12:29, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
To attempt to further clarify my reasoning, read the guidelines here. Note 2 specifically -
  • The lyrics should always be transcribed as sung and reflect what is sung on the recording. Even if these differ from the "official" lyrics, or those published in the liner notes.
  • Lyrics should follow the artist's formatting with regards to capitalization and punctuation whenever possible. If this formatting is not known (from a reliable source, such as lyrics included with the album, the artist's website, etc.), then capitalize the first letter of each line and use minimal end-of-line punctuation. In other words, use only punctuation needed for clarity's sake.</code>
What I get from that is, minimal punctuation, unless otherwise listed as such within the artists own lyrics (such as liner notes, etc). The guideline says capitalize the first letter of each line and that's it (when the artist's format is unknown, which is most cases), I add in comma's to represent vocal pauses, for reasons which I previously stated.ҚιļļεяСļоωη 12:38, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
Additionally- Why do you insist on massively editing Gold ranked songs when we are advised to discuss changes on the songs talk page before making major changes. I personally spend a LOT of time listening to music, checking/fixing lyrics and ensuring that a good bulk of the pages I edit are Gold quality or as close to as possible. It is the concept of lyricwiki that anyone can come and edit and it's something to have to deal with, but it is annoying when people constantly go behind you on pages you have spent so much time working on, to make changes based on their own opinion or view of the situation. I use official lyrics (generally) to ensure correct wording, I use my sense of sound/hearing to correctly structure a song as it is sung in the original recording.ҚιļļεяСļоωη 22:07, December 30, 2010 (UTC)


Sorry bout that. I didnt know. So you put the gamefeature before all the B-Hits and whatnot? XxTimberlakexx 14:56, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

Grammar & correctitude

Hi, KillerClown.

Wanted to let you know main reasons why your last edition on Led Zeppelin:Stairway To Heaven was reverted:
  • grammar rules, determining the position of commas in the sentence, aren't based just on pauses: mispositioned comma may even change the meaning of the sentence.
  • you certainly can't "go back and forth on this(edit war) as long as you like". That goes in contradiction to the main idea of wiki and may lead to administrative measures, preventing such edit wars.
  • and finally - please try to keep the style of your comments more discreet
--Senvaikis (talk) 21:01, July 15, 2011 (UTC)
The point wasn't an edit war, it was the concept of comma placement, that was what I referring to going back and forth on. The way I worded my comment was based on the comment of the previous change, where I was basically told NOT to do something that I have done the entire time I have been editing on this wiki, by someone who has 1/3rd of the edits/experience as I have here, and is NOT an admin. I have done my share of editing on this wiki, and you can clearly see I'm not going to edit war with anyone, if it appears it will come to that, I usually push it to a higher level (administrator). I realize this may be rather easy to misinterpret in its current form/location, but you also have to think that I am limited (by character count) in my comments, and trying to explain anything is highly limited. (I also didn't know that the way I worded my comments was reasoning by which to roll back changes that were made, though you are listing it as two of the main reasons).
  • grammar rules - on lw are very lightly touched, and very bland and open to interpretation, I'll explain further...
The guidelines say "transcribed as sung" and "as needed for clarification" (not exact quotes). To me, this insinuates lyrical clarification, I realize fully a misplaced comma can change the meaning of what was said, that is why I generally only place them where vocal pauses are, then they are lyrically correct, and true to the way the artist exerted them. And even Sean has told me he tends to place commas in lyrics, in some sense, the way I do, because it's lyrical clarity. If you actually look at the lyrics as I structured them with commas, and listen to the song, you will find that they are generally exactly where the artist pauses between lines, or in the middle of lines, and every line makes complete sense lyrically.ҚιļļεяСļоωη 01:23, July 16, 2011 (UTC)
As you've probably noticed, I'm not very good in English, thus don't pretend to a role of final judge (you may want to discuss that with Trainman - other our admin, much more competent in this field).
But afaik, LW haven't yet implemented any new interpretation of comma as punctuation mark. That's why I can't agree neither with comma removing from "Yes, there are two paths you can go by" nor with added comma in "In my thoughts I have seen, rings of smoke through the trees". And I'm pretty sure Robert Plant wouldn't like that too :) --Senvaikis (talk) 11:53, July 16, 2011 (UTC)
I was kind of upset that you accused me of threatening an edit war. Even though your English isn't that good, I do understand how you could have taken it that way, in the context it was in. It was half my fault, but you assuming I meant that was "a bit" against AGF. :P
I'd like to explain another reason why I tend to use commas where artists pause lyrically. The way I look at lyrics is, I want to be able to sit and sing along with the artist, as the song progresses. To me, having those commas represents that pause vocally/lyrically (in some rarer cases representing a shift from one half of a line to the other), making singing along a bit easier. So for me it isn't all about what the artist wants, as much as it is about having the lyrics in a legible, laid out form, that allows singing along (with correct lyrics of course).
In the case of the LZ song, I can understand sticking to the liner notes, since I now understand the nature of those (handwritten and printed out). That again, was my fault, as I made my changes before I checked the talk page (on a Gold rated song). I did post and discuss them afterwards, but I should have done that beforehand. The majority of songs don't have liner notes, or if they do you can easily tell they are not exactly "correct" (especially when you get into Rap music), and I've nearly become used to just editing things without checking, since the majority of the time my edits have only intentions of adding (positively) to pages.
Fortunately, it does seem to be a rare case that this type of instance would occur, where liner notes are so prominent, so at least it's not something to have to stress over in depth.
I was almost done typing this when I checked the talk page for this song and 6x9 has linked me to the actual printout everyone is going by. By no means am I trying to have some large argument, but that liner is an illustration, done by an artist ((Barrington Colby) not a band member), and there are clearly a couple mistakes in it.
  • 1) These 2 lines are vocally/lyrically "symmetrical" in the song itself but not in the illustration:
"Your head is humming and it won't go, in case you don't know" & "Dear lady can you hear the wind blow, and did you know". In fact the illustration credits "and did you know" to the next line (because it has a dot after "blow").
  • 2)The same applies to the verse previous to that with "If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now" & "Yes there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run". Again, "But in the long run" is being credited to the last line of the verse, not the third line as it (IMO) truly applies.
  • 3) In the third line of the first verse, the illustration says "And when she gets there she knows if the stores are closed", while he actually sings "And when she gets there she knows if the stores are all closed".
  • 4) The most prominent mistake in the illustration, after it says "And the forest will echo with laughter" the illustration has "And it makes me wonder" and that clearly is not in the song in that form, that line actually comes after the next complete verse, he only does some "whoa-whoa" type singing after the forest line. Not to mention those hook-like lines are missing everywhere else in the illustration, while they clearly exist within the song itself.
I guess my point here is: lw guidelines give importance to "transcribed as sung", and to me the illustration is not such, it is an artist rendering of their interpretation of the song.
I'd also like to take this opportunity to give you a little background about myself, and some of my reasoning/skills I use when transcribing lyrics. I played violin in 4th and 5th grades in school (all gold stars both years (equivalent of all A's), I was in band from 6th grade through my third year (we won't go into detail about this :P ) of 9th grade (6 years) (again all A's), playing several different instruments. I am very highly mathematically and musically adept, I count beats and use them in determining some accuracies of the lyrics I transcribe. I LOVE music, and I have my whole life. As you can see by the amount of different genres I edit, I listen to all kinds of music. And I am extremely peculiar to being as close to, in lw terms "transcribed as sung", as I possibly can with every page I edit up to Gold. Some genres are extremely difficult, but I will play songs over and over and over while attempting to have correct lyrics, often referencing official lyrics, liner notes, and CD booklets to ensure accuracy.
And finally, I'd also like to say, the way I word things sometimes does/may appear "offensive", in a sense, I don't particularly mean them to be, it's just how they come out while I'm typing. I mean no offense to anyone with the things I say. Earlier in the beginning of my time on lw, I may have made an off-the-wall comment here or there. But as far as I can remember, after I discovered AGF, I realized I was wrong for making those comments, and I have attempted to refrain from any such activity. I look forward to hearing from you guys again, and thank you for your efforts with lw, as this site has been my ONLY site for lyrics since I discovered it just over 2 years ago. I, like Sean, was sick and tired of ad loaded pages and garbled, inaccurate lyrics, and since finding lw I have never turned back. Thanks again.ҚιļļεяСļоωη 19:58, July 16, 2011 (UTC)
I'm not acusing you "of threatening an edit war", that's again my bad English. I just wanted to prevent possible edit wars :). Anyway, thanks for your interesting self-introduction and kind words about LW. Happy editing! (and wish me a good fishing - i'm on vacation!) --Senvaikis (talk) 06:00, July 18, 2011 (UTC)

Bronze Artists

Hi, re downgrading The Smashing Pumpkins from bronze to green...

The status of albums and songs has nothing to do with bronze for an artist. Refer Help:Page ranking/Artists. Eeepy 06:00, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

I would debate that based on the rule that an artist page cannot proceed beyond bronze based on album page ranking, why should you be able to bronze an artist page that's albums are not bronze, but you can't silver an artist page until all album pages are silver+. Inconsistency is annoying.


Just "#RD" doesn't work, you have to spell it out... But you can leave the summary blank when redirecting, it will be filled in automatically. — 6×9 (Talk) 09:35, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, not sure what I was thinking, even my cheat-sheet has it #REDIRECT, must have confused myself with some other coding. Looks like you got all of them fixed, my bad. :D ҚιɭɭεяСɭоωη (talk) 21:22, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry mate

I just logged in after 5 years and read my talk page D: You probably don't remember at all, but I was overly harsh about some SOAD lyrics and ended up doing rather stupid edits. I was really young back then and now it's quite cringeworthy to read lol. Anyway, I'm wiser now and I'll try to keep making solid edits for the community. :) Just don't want people to remember me as a dick, that's all haha. --Tiku-Orava 12:56, August 18, 2015 (UTC)

You're right, I really don't recall at all. I got past people doing silly edits and changing lyrics quite a long time ago, it is, after all, a part of being a wiki contributor. The AGF I suggested covers this as well IIRC. Anyway, no worries, I hold no grudges here, else I'd have pulled my hair out long, long ago. :P ҚιɭɭεяСɭоωη (talk) 09:24, August 23, 2015 (UTC)

Your job request

Hi KC, the reason why you couldn't create the "album" page is that we're having a bug atm. For now, album creation is only possible with a workaround. But imo it wouldn't be wise to create the page you requested: the single was already added to the single section of The Killers' artist page. In order to avoid redundancy, I think you should refrain from creating this page. Hth,  · Lichtweber talk service  15:32, December 2, 2015 (UTC)

So what do you say? Do you want keep your job request up or not?  · Lichtweber talk service  15:46, February 8, 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, I thought you had closed the request after your first reply. I have no objection to your suggestion. ҚιɭɭεяСɭоωη (talk) 00:14, February 9, 2016 (UTC)

Aaron Lewis:That Ain't Country

Thanks for your changes to That Ain't Country; particularly for noticing that it's 'Row' rather than 'road'.

However, you seem to have removed a lot of line breaks and replaced them with commas (some of which are ungrammatical), especially in the chorus. Why is that? The pause between 'the old songs' and 'that my grandad', for example, clearly indicates a line break.

(You've also removed the comma after 'drunk again' and added one after 'know', which are not correct) --RWDCollinson (talk) 10:29, September 16, 2016 (UTC)

Some of those don't really seem like line breaks, it's just that he is including a word at the end of a line that doesn't go into the next line (but I separate with a comma to acknowledge the rhyming words/end of line). "know, that" would be an example of this, similar to the "eye, 'cause" line ending in the 2nd verse, separated by comma based on the rhyming words "Row"/"know". I typically interpret end of lines by using the rhyming words. In the first section you are referencing specifically "play" and "away" are the rhyming words, indicating the end of the lines. Counting the beats while listening to the chorus they don't really seem to line up to a 2x4-count beat, but they do to a 4x4-count beat (when looking at the chorus as a whole).
With commas in lyrics I tend to put them only in for either clarification/grammar (ex. single lines that wouldn't make sense without a comma) or for vocal pauses, with "the old songs that my grandad used to play" he doesn't have a full vocal pause as he draws out "songs" and continues with the rest of what I interpret as the line.
You are right about the "drunk again, imagine that", I just didn't catch that one, it should be there for grammar/clarity. I transcribe/edit lyrics on multiple sites, sometimes I just do a copy over from one site to another after I've transcribed or edited. For this page I copied from my transcribe from another site, apparently I missed that error there also. Grandad shouldn't be capitalized either in the lyrics, I had not caught that yet either.
Somewhat the 4 line chorus is a personal style of editing, as it's easier (IMO) to read along with while listening to a song, and it keeps visual consistency of line length throughout the lyrics. I don't have anything against an 8 line chorus other than that really. If you wanted to edit that to 8 lines (or wished for me to revert it to an 8 line chorus) I would have no problem with it.
Additional: I tend to go over lyrics (ones that I can't/don't immediately, or have yet to, Gold edit) many times, because mistakes happen. Being this is a "new" song, I still have many more views coming up for the page where I likely would catch any mistakes that were lingering before upgrading the page up to Gold. ҚιɭɭεяСɭоωη (talk) 11:42, September 16, 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for that full explanation. You might want to be a bit more careful about copying/pasting when a song has already been certified (although of course we don't get everything right, and I missed 'Row').
I apply a number of different rules when working out the end of the line, and that does include accommodating the rhyme scheme (but there's no reason not to have an ABAC rhyme scheme, so only every other line rhymes). But one rule I apply consistently is that I put a line break in whenever the singer pauses, and that pause is not grammatically explicable (ie, through a comma, semicolon, colon, or full stop). I think that's consistent with the LW philosophy of transcribing the lyrics as sung. I take your point about the 's' at the end of 'songs', but if you compare it with 'the ones that speak to me the way I feel today', you need to introduce a grammatically dubious comma in the middle in order to keep the lines roughly the same length.
I acknowledge that this is all a bit subjective, but I do think I'm led largely by the vocal pauses. Anyway, since you're all right with it, I'll change back the chorus lengths. Keep up the good work!
--RWDCollinson (talk) 12:16, September 16, 2016 (UTC)
Most pages that are certified aren't bronze ranked, this is likely why I didn't notice it was certified. If you scroll up here on my talk page you'll see I've had lengthy discussions about comma placement and reasoning that goes as far back as even conversations via IRC with the person who created LyricWiki and his input on my style of editing. Until a rule is made that is contrary to my editing style this is the way I will continue to edit the pages (though I don't tend to edit pages that are Gold/Certified by other users by other users in this manner). (Reading this sounds offensive, not intended to be)
I don't personally consider vocal pauses to be very reliable sources for determining the end of line, as there are copious amounts of examples in lyrics where the artist has pauses vocally that don't represent the end of a line. I primarily use rhythms/beat counts/rhymes (another topic mentioned previously here on my talk page) to determine the end of a line, they tend to be more accurate in my experience (my musical experience is also mentioned above).
I'm not sure what you're intending with "you need to introduce a grammatically dubious comma in the middle in order to keep the lines roughly the same length". Technically, afa English grammar goes, if this were a sentence, there should be a semicolon after "me", because "the way I feel today is a inherent to "me". Instead of semicolons or colons I typically use commas, because (to me) semicolons and the like are tacky within lyrics. Lyrics are more like poems versus normal English grammar (paragraphs/sentences) (this is part of why you don't necessarily need end of line punctuation, though some poets use them, others don't, and there's no strict rules for poetry in that respect). (This is irrelevant since you are making it 2 lines, just giving insight into my perspective) ҚιɭɭεяСɭоωη (talk) 13:39, September 16, 2016 (UTC)
We've run into editing conflict again! I did have a word wrong on two lines of William Michael Morgan:Missing, although you've introduced your ungrammatical commas again (which I do think really look problematic), and there is a clear line break between 'missing' and 'my favourite place to be. I think part of the difficulty in your philosophy is that it's biased in favour of every line having the same number of beats, which isn't the case. (You also use [Till]] instead of ['Til], which some would consider to be wrong).

Your edit of William Michael Morgan:Back Seat Driver, however, introduces a number of inaccuracies (both grammatical and lyrical). It does look like you've overwritten my text again, despite the fact that the song was certified.

I'm also not sure it's right to have a non-video Youtube embed when a video with good audio quality is available; in such cases, I just link to the official audio in the footer, but I don't embed it. --RWDCollinson (talk) 10:47, October 7, 2016 (UTC)

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