i've got a list cosisting of 26 covers for this song, I have already applied the change. Some of the covers have pages in wikia but the others don't. If possible, help me in checking for the ones with non-existing pages if the name of the covered song is the same "stairway to heaven" as some artists change the name of the song when they cover it. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by ScreamForMe (talk • contribs), 20:19, 26 September 2009.
Why is the page not connected to YouTube? I would just connect it, but since it's gold, I thought I should discuss it first.
Kiefer, I understand that the album sleeve may display one thing, but structurally (and generally lyrically) the things I just changed make sense. I spent most of my time listening to my dads old records (throughout my youth into late-teens), looking at the covers/sleeves and such, and found a lot of them had incorrect structure (mostly due to the shape of the record sleeve itself, combined with the amount of lyrics printed on them). I'm curious as to if that may have been the case here? (I don't have access to that vinyl album atm). Admittedly this time I did not check the talk page before I submitted my changes, so if you roll them back I can understand. But I do seriously question the layout, especially where it entirely changes 2 sentences: I truly believe he is saying "Sometimes all of our thoughts have, two meanings" as a single line. I also added "it", because he clearly says such in the lyrics, and the lw guidelines have always stated "transcribed as sung". The half-line I moved makes more sense because of the line 2 lines before it, the consistency of the way he sings the entire verse (based on the beats of the song & the pauses he makes vocally) insist that they should be structured the same (This, in a sense, also applies to the "Sometimes all of our..." line I just spoke of). I also changes "shadows" to "shadow's" because, to me, it is obvious the intended meaning is "Our shadow is taller than our soul". (I mean no offense by any of what I said, nor am I intending to try to tell you the guidelines, I only direct this to you because of your Cert note, and I only mentioned the guidelines as part of my "reasoning" for the changes).ҚιļļεяСļоωη 07:25, July 15, 2011 (UTC)
- If there is a conflict between the actual recording and the liner notes, then the recording wins, no doubt. Extra words sung? Add them in. Some words not sung? Leave them out. But when Led Zeppelin took enough time to have the liner notes hand-written, then I think a certain respect to the formatting/punctuation should be taken. Goodness knows that liner notes often times are horrible messes. But taking cues from them when unsure as to song meaning or artist intent is often more helpful than hurtful.
- (For example, "May-queen" and "shadows" and the splitting of some of the lines that were merged/rearranged.)
- As for the shadows/shadow's bit.... "Our shadows taller than our soul" I believe is supposed to mean/evoke that it is late evening, and literally their shadows (plural) are very long/tall. Note that the line before is "And as we wind on down the road", also plural.
- Thanks for the note. Glad I stopped by. :-]
03:04, July 16, 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for your response. ;)
Ahh, yeah that did slip my mind for the shadows part, and I see it now that I think about it (though it could make sense either way, I see what you're saying and I can agree with you fully)Actually, thinking about it again, what makes this questionable is that "soul" is singular, being that, why would "shadows/shadow's" not be? I think that if he were referring to shadows as a plural entity then he would have referred to "souls" the same way (This is just my opinion, and as you can clearly see I'm arguing with myself about this, because technically it could work either way, but has different meanings). I don't think I actually changed May Queen, I just added a WP link to it IIRC. Curious as to what you think about the "Sometimes" line, as he really has a hard pause after the previous line before saying "Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven". That really sounds like a separate line, but you say the sleeve actually says the previous way?
- I do generally always add/remove any words that exist/don't exist, as that is directly reflected by "transcribed as sung" (and the guidelines do detail that as "even if official lyrics differ").
- Most of my comma changes were all rolled back anyway, unfortunately it seems 2/3rd's of the reasoning were based on my edit note alone (which was taken differently than I intended, and I understand how it could be in the context it was in), and not the actual lyrics. And to me, the only reason that did directly refer to the lyrics were based on "sentences". I don't personally see lyrics as sentences, paragraphs, or any of the likes. They are just that, lyrics, and therefore considerably go against most grammar rules anyway (especially when you consider the way a lot of artist write their lyrics down, and even more-so when they sing them). And lw really lacks "real" specifics on commas: The guidelines say minimal end-of-line punctuation, but it also says as needed for clarification, but doesn't say what kind of clarification is intended. This could be grammatical clarification or lyrical clarification, for example: "Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run" is grammatically correct, because you would put a comma in after "Yes". On the other hand: "Yes there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run" is lyrically correct because that is literally the way the lyrics are sung. I believe lw needs a little more definition/explanation to "for clarity's sake".ҚιļļεяСļоωη 04:43, July 16, 2011 (UTC)
- Adding a few points…
- You can see the lyrics-as-originally-printed here (scroll to the bottom). As you can see, the longer lines are wrapped, but a dot marks the end of each "real" line. Whether they were really intended to be split that way or the calligrapher just transcribed Plant's handwritten draft we'll probably never know, so we'll have to assume the former. (Same with spelling or grammatical errors in song or album titles – unless they were fixed on later pressings of an album, we have to assume they're intentional and leave them in the pagename.)
- The reason we don't have a strict policy on EOL punctuation (or capitalisation of first letter of each line) is that such a policy wouldn't work for all lyrics. Where it does work is with lyrics where each line forms a "sentence" (though not necessarily a complete or grammatically correct one). Where it does not work is with prose, where a sentence might stretch across several lines and even begin/end in the middle of a line.
As a rule-of-thumb, I'd say that if an artist formatted the lyrics in a certain way (and that formatting is not dictated by other factors, like lines cut short before an image, as you mentioned above) and that formatting doesn't hurt "legibility" (e.g. one huge block without line breaks), we should keep it intact. Of course, this does not include formatting like all-bold, all-uppercase (and by extension all-lowercase) or font colours. — 6×9 (Talk) 06:28, July 16, 2011 (UTC)
- Adding a few points…
- Though I'd like to respond in a couple ways, I'd like to ask if you would maybe stop by my talk page, where I have made a few "key" points about this song (and the illustration in particular) in my conversation with Senvaikis, as I do believe they are quite valid points. I would however like to point out one thing you said, and my opinion on that:
- ""Whether they were really intended to be split that way or the calligrapher just transcribed Plant's handwritten draft we'll probably never know, so we'll have to assume the former."
- You are clearly making an assumption, and basing lyrics on an illustration that clearly has inaccuracies within it. While lw guidelines do very clearly state "transcribed as sung even if they differ from official lyrics/notes".
- Other points you made are addressed within my talk page, which is why I asked if you'd come by there, so I don't have to duplicate things I typed. :) Thanks for your response. (Note: I am currently working on my response on my talk page, it may be a little while before I actually get them submitted)ҚιļļεяСļоωη 19:48, July 16, 2011 (UTC)