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Reconsidering Hard4me's adminship (take 2...)

Hello fellow admins. This is something that I brought up on the admin portal over six months ago, but removed it because I was really scared how it would turn out, because really, it's not a pleasant subject in the slightest. But, lately as I was seeing more and more of Hard4me's unconstructive edits, I realized I should man up and bring this up here, yet again, without chickening out this time. Because, let's face the facts, this will need to be discussed at some point, and I really need to get this off my chest.

Here is the original post I made here last August:

"This has been on my mind for a while, and I'm wanting to know what you guys think. I feel like since Hard4me's been administrator, he hasn't done a whole lot of..."administratorly" things I guess. I also know that he's caused some controversy with me and Senv in the past (1 - 2). In these two cases, me and Senv were trying to teach him how to do things correctly and him for ignore them (deliberately or accidentally, though, that I don't know). Of course, when he did finally acknowledge them, not only did he provide a one-word response in my case, but in Senv's case, waited weeks to respond, and continued to make the same mistake despite being reminded multiple times. I should note that he got very defensive towards me when I tried to help him. He's gotten into multiple edit wars from what I remember, as well (though I will admit, one or two of those was with me, but we resolved that shortly after).
It feels like he has trouble following directions and keeps wanting to do things "his way" and deems all other ways incorrect. Also, this probably has nothing to do with it, but I feel like he's a little young still, so this may purely just be him being naive (then again, I'm only a year or two older than him, if I remember his age correctly, but I don't make nearly as many mistakes as he does).
All in all, from what I've seen, it seems like Hard4me is a somewhat naive administrator who isn't always capable of being taught the right thing and continuously formats things incorrectly. This may be just my opinion, so I'd like to see some input from other admins. Of course, it would be nice to see some input from Hard4me on this as well, and he could hopefully provide some rebuttal on why he should stay administrator, and might even vow to improve (as long as he actually sticks to his word this time). I think he just needs some direction, because this is stuff that he can easily improve on, and I believe that he can do it. He never checks this portal though so he would have to get a reminder on his talk page to check it."
So, I don't really want to reword my original post too much, because it's still pretty much what I have to say on the issue. However, one of the main problems I can see here that I'd like to add is actually breaking this news to Hard4me in the first place, because as we all know, he almost never bothers to check his talk page, which bothers me beyond belief. Because of this, I have no idea how we're going to contact him. So, if we wanted an input from him on this, well, I can't imagine us actually getting one. So if the admins actually come to a valid decision, we may have to just demote him without him even knowing about it. I'm not sure how this would work...
Another addition I'd like to make to that post is where I say in the last paragraph that we can easily teach him to improve and give him some direction to do the right thing. I've realized this is not exactly as easy as I made it sound, taking into account the fact that, despite that me, Senv, and other admins tried to give him help on his talk page before, he very rarely followed it. In fact, he usually ignored it altogether or simply gave it a one-word response, and then continued to make the same mistake.
Well, that's about all I have to say. Not looking forward to this discussion, but it's something that we have to get out of the way... XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)13:19, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
I have little to add, except that h4m hardly ever uses his admin powers other than to delete pages, or move without leaving a redirect, both of which he shouldn't have done in many cases… — 6×9 (Talk) 12:55, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
Have nothing new to add also, or, to be precise, - I'm not eager to repeat an evident truth: h4m always was and still remains a negative magnitude in sense of adminship. --Senvaikis (talk) 07:56, March 24, 2014 (UTC)
done. I'd like that unpleasant job was done by Chris, but he's too rare guest now on LW. Anyways, I'm sure he'd agree - that should be done long before imo...--Senvaikis (talk) 08:24, March 24, 2014 (UTC)
Good going Senv, it's probably best to get the dirty deed out of the way than to drag it on longer than it needs to be. Plus, I feel like we would be the only three to comment on this either way, and I'm sure this has been on the administrators's minds for a while. I just wonder how Hard4me will react to this, or if he'll even react at all...
But Senv, I'm starting to wonder, if Hard4me was always such a "negative magnitude" as an administrator, then why wasn't his demotion brought up sooner? He was administrator for ~2 years before we demoted him. A better question would be: why did we even promote him in the first place? I'd like to know, because I never heard the reasons behind his promotion. Chris promoted both me and him the same day, and while Chris told me why I was promoted, he didn't mention why H4M was. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)20:23, March 24, 2014 (UTC)
I guess you'd have to ask Chris, if I read this correctly he suggested it to Sean. (Hope this doesn't come across as fingerpointing…) IIRC his edits back then were fairly consistent, and he did a lot of work on Album of the Week. — 6×9 (Talk) 10:47, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
Ah okay, that makes more sense. So it seems that his editing quality slowly decreased ever since his promotion. Interesting... XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)21:06, March 25, 2014 (UTC)

New promotions

When Hard4me was demoted, it got me to thinking that maybe it's about time for some new promotions. Over the last 2+ years (ever since the last bout of promotions, that is) I've seen quite a few users that I think are worthy of consideration. The main ones that come to mind atm are:

  • Dr. Beat - Very friendly user who I've talked to a lot. I've taught him many things (such as uploading images and other facets of wiki editing) and he is a very diligent editor. Recently, he's been working hard to reduce the OS categories (Low, moderate, and severe) which I greatly applaud him for, and I think he'd be a perfect candidate for administrator
  • Lichtweber - Another hard worker, and has been actively engaging in wiki discussions lately (even making that proposal for using writer's names as an artist prefix)
  • Arwen4CJ - Don't really have much to say about him (only because I haven't talked to him that much); mainly the same stuff I said for Lichtweber, but they both definitely know what they're doing. His edits impress me and he does a great job in maintaining a wide array of articles.

On the contrary, should we keep Redxx promoted or not? I've seen from logs that she was an extremely helpful admin back when she was around, but she hasn't edited for a little over four years now...I don't know what the consensus is for demoting admins if they've been inactive, but four years is a long time and I don't know if she'll ever be coming back.
So, what do you admins think? Should we consider promoting/demoting any of these users? XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)21:06, March 25, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we should concern much about Redxx admin grants, Nick, - actually they neither endanger LW nor require any additional resources. Btw, there are other currently-inactive-admins with even older last-loggin dates, one of them still wears a hat of bureaucrat, why then ask about R only?.
And one more note: don't know about others, but personally I don't like any discussions about any admin demotion in a public namespace.
Now about pretenders.
  • Dr. Beat, silently promoted by me to trusted yet in January, is undoubtly one of the most diligent, consistent and trustworthy editors atm. I wouldn't be so sure about his communicational habbits though (the bad example of one admin could be the possible reason), but I'm technician, thus may sweep that aside in hope that will come with time.
  • Lichtweber was asked to think about a possible adminship yet in September. Then he's expressed some doubts about his readiness and time availability. It would be unfair if I not confessed - later I've thought that was a wise decision. Still can't forget my friend Echo - I still miss him, but can't forget also the problems, caused by his reinless activity... Anyways, we may reask Weber what he thinks about that now.
  • Arwen certainly has no concurents in his thoroughness. That's good, especially for a job he and his friend are ready to start in our docs. With one condition: he should promise us not to make LW a Christian-only-lyrics-site ;).
--Senvaikis (talk) 12:46, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
Well, I wasn't entirely sure if Redxx's adminship was a big deal or not - that's why I was asking what the consensus is for inactive admins ;) So, I get what you're saying - doesn't really matter if inactive admins are still promoted, because it's not really harming anything. And yes, I understand you don't like talking about admin demoting in public namespace, but 1) it's really the only place to discuss those things and 2) we had to discuss a demotion one header ago, and while it's not a pleasant subject it's not always an avoidable one either. Also, wait a minute...EchoSierra's a male? Coulda sworn she (he?) was female. But yeah, I don't know what happened to her - when she came back for a while, she was a real solid admin, but then disappeared yet again out of nowhere.
Anyways, back to the admin candidates. About Dr. Beat: I know communicating habits aren't even remotely a factor for adminship (I got your allusion to Hard4me there, so point taken), but I was just throwing that in because he's a good friend of mine and I've observed his editing for a long time.
Pushing the communication factor aside tho, you can't even compare his edits to Hard4me's - they're a lot more in-depth and he's a lot more diligent than Hard4me's ever been. Honestly, I think he'd do great and I have high hopes for him. I mean, I wouldn't want to guilt trip myself for suggesting this though if he does turn out like Hard4me, but judging by his edits, I highly doubt he will, and I trust that he'll make an excellent admin.
The deal with Arwen and Weber sounds good - definitely contact Weber about this, I'd like to see what he wants to do. And heh, I don't see why it matters what Arwen edits - he's into Christian stuff, so if that's what he'd like to edit, so be it.
I wanna see what 6 has to say before we promote anyone of course, since you, 6 and I seem to be really the only ones active in the AP these days SmileXxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)00:37, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
You're surprised Echo is male… and you both call Arwen "he"? Mind, I can't remember whether she ever confirmed her gender, but since she named herself after a female character…
I've been waiting for other opinions because I was kinda undecided… Turns out Senv has pretty much the same concerns, and spelled them out clearer than I could have done. I didn't think of Echo when I considered Lichtweber (though by the time I started on LW Echo was already an admin, so I don't know what he was like before that), but I did occasionally notice some potentially problematic attitudes. But maybe they were just born out of frustration on the root pages policy not moving forwards…
So I'm okay with all three.
PS. I've already taken the liberty of promoting Arwen & LW to trusted; well-deserved I think, regardless of adminship. — 6×9 (Talk) 08:38, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
Oops... Now, after a longish journey through multiple Inet accounts, I see - 6's right again.
The French are right - it's always better to bring apologies to a woman, especially if that's not your guilt ;) My apologies, Melissa :) --Senvaikis (talk) 11:35, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
Heh, well, genders are always an ambiguous thing online unless someone openly states whether they're male or female... To be honest I always assumed Echo was a girl because he had Sierra in his username, plus I always had a really female vibe while talking to him.
Anyways, it seems like we all agree on Dr. Beat and Arwen being promoted, so should we start by promoting them now, then? It seems like we should ask Weber first before we promote him because of the aforementioned issues he may have with his availability, so we should probably hold off on him for now until we hear from him on the matter. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)22:04, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
It's probably good form to ask all three of them first. Would you like to do the honours? — 6×9 (Talk) 11:06, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
I guess I could. I actually didn't think I needed to ask them, because when I was promoted, I was never asked; Chris just told me I was getting promoted and I just went with it. But alright, I'll do that. I just asked Dr. Beat on Facebook via PM (waiting for a response), and I'll ask the other two now. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)13:29, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
Just one nuance: it would be better not to keep a long pause between questions to Arwen and Weber... :) --Senvaikis (talk) 13:56, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
That wasn't my fault, Senv, I had to eat breakfast after I asked Arwen Wink I have a life and whatnot. Plus, I don't see why it matters when I asked them: I still asked them both.
Anyhow, Dr. Beat says he'd love to, and Arwen has accepted as well.
Weber, on the other hand, stated that as an admin he wants to have a distinct responsibility for things such as root page stuff. Do you two think this could be arranged? XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)17:46, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
Welcome to the new admins (now that they can see this page)! I know, I know, I have to keep poking my head in every so often so people realize I'm still around. Trainman (talk) 19:40, March 30, 2014 (UTC)
Thanks.  :) I went ahead and added the Dr. Beat, myself, and Lichtweber to the List of active admin so that users could find us easily. --Arwen4CJ Talk 19:57, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

My First Batch Move

I want to make sure that I do everything correctly. Del Tha Funkee Homosapien (and any song/artist under artist name) needs to be redirected to Del The Funky Homosapien. I am guessing I would need to batch move the songs and albums first, and then the artist page? Anything I need to know before I do this? --Arwen4CJ Talk 16:28, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

The order (batch move/artist page) doesn't matter. Batchmove also fixes the song links on the album pages; it doesn't fix Song and Album templates, or any other links to the artist page. You might want to leave those to Senv or me – too many to do by hand!
If a target page already exists (there's two with "The"), BM will slap a merge template on both pages. You can avoid that by previewing first (always a good idea) and see if there's any pairs that need to be merged. Have fun! :-) — 6×9 (Talk) 17:21, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. So am I all ready to run batch move then? --Arwen4CJ Talk 18:08, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
Go ahead (that's what I meant by "have fun"). — 6×9 (Talk) 19:06, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
Oops, I accidentally did it twice. I didn't think it had worked the first time because it gave me a blank screen when it was done. (I've been having trouble with my Internet connection the last couple days, and I noticed that earlier today lyric wikia was having problems.). How do I fix the extra ones? Can I just delete the extra pages that just have merge templates on them, as well as the merge templates themselves? --Arwen4CJ Talk 21:16, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
Never mind...I see what put the merge template on the old page name, not the new one. So how do I "merge" them into the correct one? I might play around in my sandbox a bit to see if I can figure it out. --Arwen4CJ Talk 21:39, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
Running it twice shouldn't matter, since it ignores redirects. Looks like the merge templates were added because most pages at "The" existed as redirects, but the redirects were badly formatted: #Redirect[[...]] instead of #REDIRECT [[...]]. They work either way, but BM is unfortunately picky about that kind of thing. So the next best thing is to manually move source to target, and when LW complains that target exists, click the checkbox to delete it. — 6×9 (Talk) 04:54, April 4, 2014 (UTC)
I've deleted the malformed "The" redirects, so if you want to give it another go, batchmove should now handle the remaining pages without problems. — 6×9 (Talk) 17:29, April 4, 2014 (UTC)
Arwen, I know I'm mighty late on this - but I just wanted to say: don't feel bad for messing up your first batch move. Trust me, my first batchmove was a disaster (I'm sure Senv remembers that Korn to KoRn batchmove I made 2 years ago...) - it takes some time to get used to the tool. Wink XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)03:31, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Now I did one too: Aaron -> AaRON. Strange: I had to move the artist page by hand. No idea why. One of you guys care to check?  · Lichtweber talk service  18:06, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, Batchmove's always been like that - it'll move all of the song/album pages (and even change the artist name on all the album pages), but the artist page itself, the Song template artist link, and the artist name for the songs on the artist page need to be manually changed. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)22:05, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

I've started a batchmove guide, since this will probably come up again in the future… Feel free to update/correct/amend it! — 6×9 (Talk) 12:23, April 19, 2014 (UTC)

Great! Thanks, man! So you or Senv wanna send your robots? Cuz I'm not sure if I want to handle the outcome ... X-)  · Lichtweber talk service 
Looks good, 6 Smile Could we possibly link to that on Special:Batchmove? XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)16:22, April 19, 2014 (UTC)
@LW: Done; there's still the merges to deal with though. Those should be done by hand; a bot can't tell which lyrics are in better shape.
@Nic: AFAIK not without access to the special page's source code. I've put a link here though. — 6×9 (Talk) 08:59, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
Could we possibly ask Sean for the link to the Batchmove page's source code, then? I know I was able to edit the source code for the Upload page recently to emphasize that images can't exceed 500x500 (putting it in big, red letters instead of simply bold), so I figure the Batchmove page shouldn't be that much different. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)23:18, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
Sorry – with source code I meant the actual .php file; can't edit that without direct access to the server. — 6×9 (Talk) 07:38, April 27, 2014 (UTC)

Visual changes

FYI: Content team is re-doing the skin a bit. Thread here has more info: LyricWiki_talk:Community_Portal#Visual_changes
-Sean Colombo (talk) 00:52, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

If it wouldn't be much trouble for the rest of you admins, it would be nice if you all could provide feedback on this layout in the above thread. I've already stated my thoughts there and I feel this is something we need to discuss. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)02:53, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
New skin? OK with me. (Sorry for getting back late)  · Lichtweber talk service  20:54, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
Hah, you're one of the lucky ones, Weber - the skin was abysmal when they first changed it - the color of buttons/tabs was purple and the main page was significantly changed without discussion first (removal of Top 100, addition of "featured lyrics" section). It's all been fixed now though and the only remnants of the visual changes now are the purple background, the new grey background of lyrics boxes, and the logo. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)00:18, June 5, 2014 (UTC)

An Attempt to Clear the Mess

I post this here cuz I assume this is not a public space A few weeks back I started to clear the Disney mess (loads of pages misattributed to Disney as performer, long lists of non-English lyrics pages on bad shaped album pages, and so forth).

The reason I started this is to get some well formed song and album pages as an example that can be followed when setting up new pages or sorting songs. Maybe for a future User Guideline or How-To. I am guessing you agree that this is a task worth trying.

Most of the Disney soundtracks deriving from animated (children's) movies are released in many languages. This is why I started to create seperate album pages for those releases. Now, you, Senv, reverted an edit I made, stating I should prove the existence and set up the page. That didn't help, because I think it confuses users. I think we should rather support each other.

For many of those non-English releases you can hardly find satisfying refs anywhere, but they do exist anyway. (for the one in question I only found this one Wikipedia16. Apart from that I didn't have the time to set up a new page and do all the research right away). Would you be so kind to please restore the link, Senv?

For the future, I'd be glad if you guys could first get back to me on my talk page if sth is unclear. This way we spare users from getting confused, and us from being embarrassed.

If you like, we could discuss how this is done the best way. F.i. I am not sure about the use of {{Ainfo}} for the list of releases (language wise). Maybe we should create a new template for that task? Thx  · Lichtweber talk service  15:42, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunatelly, I'm leaving and just can't respond suitably right now. Will be able to do so only on Monday.
May say only one - you are starting to frighten me. Hope my fears are baseless...--Senvaikis (talk) 12:26, May 23, 2014 (UTC)
Well-spent weekend served me a good favour - I've lost almost all that initial irritation, caused by your strange attempts to deceive other admins. That's why now I limit my msg to just a short note.
Have you really expected that other admins not noticed, who (and how) has started this sequence of revertions? Moreover - they surely could notice, that atm of this edition mentioned release page even haven't been created. Even now, after belated your editions this "release" page still doesn't meet even minimal LW requirements for album page (any release info, any external links, missing full tracklist etc). So, you repeatedly re(re)verted other admin editions, making that in contradiction to current LW policy and without any discussion with that admin. Well, that's not the first time for me. But claiming me in edit war or lack of support after that? You should be more fair, Weber. And revert you edition by yourself - I'm not going to participate in any edit war with any admin.
I do appreciate your attempts to "clear the Disney mess". Just one, last note: if you are clearing one room, dropping all its garbage into another rooms (simultaneously creating additional garbage, often - in geometric progression) - don't expect any admiration from these rooms inhabitants. Album pages without any reliable release info, without album arts, without any external links, often - without any blue link, sometimes - even with incomplete or just plaintext tracklist; songs by artists having no page on LW etc - all these objects are some kind of garbage (in terms of LW policy), and someone should clear them in the future. Maybe it would be better if such releases as Norvegian or Polish still remained in their subpage state - just as list of known songs, contained in these releases, untill there's no info about them available? Hope you still remember - LW is lyrics site...
--Senvaikis (talk) 09:16, May 26, 2014 (UTC)
Reading your reply with words like "attempt to deceive" and "garbage", I sense a lot frustration and even anger. So I am glad that we are talking about that now, and get a chance to sort things out. I am sorry that some of my edits are causing such emotions. and I want to do better. Maybe I should have brought up a request for counselling earlier (because that is what I am trying to do here, really). But on the other hand I trusted that you guys would tell me if I was on the wrong path. And in regard of the emotions mentioned above I really think it would have been better to tell me in a post rather than in a revertion (that still is dubious to me).
Actually, you are pointing at some issues where I was uncertain:
  • plain text: I admit, I thought it no use to build links for score tracks only to being forced to insert a (false) "performer" i.e. the composer. Still a big issue for me. But if you insist, I will redo all of them, and won't create new ones. Do you?
  • creating homeless pages by replacing "Disney" and such by an actual performer: I was under the impression that this is what our policies demand. And since all of those pages are listed on an album page (or a list page), bots won't create one-song artist pages, right? If you don't think this is the right thing to do - please tell me what you would rather do?
  • Album pages: I considered it sufficient if there was at least a WP link referring in some way to listed songs. And I delivered those links on all the album pages I set up. I didn't always link to the song section, though, but I saw that you fixed that on some pages. I still do not understand why you removed this link from the polish album page, though, instead of completing the link to the song list? (please note that it wasn't me who created that page). That is what I meant when I said we should support each other: Rather add than remove, and give newbies (Xfactor1234, in that case) a chance to learn.
In general I usually set up album pages whenever I can get reliable sources. If I cannot, I set up a link with the proper name of the album and then redirect to a list page, where I put the available songs temporarily until all needed information will be retrieved. Is that ok, or would you do it differently?
Now, in the case in question, and in others too, the above newbie changed those lists into album pages and moved them. I didn't do anything about it yet because I am still hoping that she will add more information. But we should give her a chance to do that, right? (on the other hand she messed up Annie (The Musical) real bad, so one of us should probably talk to her soon).
In conclusion: No matter what you guys think of my approach, I think we should agree on a consistent solution for that kind of pages, because they are popular and users should be given an example of how these pages should be built.
OK, I hope I made my points and hopefully hear your opinion/suggestions soon  · Lichtweber talk service  21:51, May 26, 2014 (UTC)
I'd prefer not to return to emotional aspects of the issue, but preamble of your response necessitates me doing that, although that positively will take an additional hour(s) (you know - I'm not very hot at English). Btw, my bad English is one of reasons (after laziness) why I usually prefer an exemplary edition with short comment instead of long instructions how it should have been done ;)
  • preamble:You should not be mad on me for some words/phrases you didn't like - it would be much worse if I decided not to discuss with you at all. Once again - keep in mind my bad English, sometimes making my posts being understood with a vice versa precision :)
    • "garbage": First of all let me notice, that you extracted this word from context, where it was used more in allegory about room clearing, not as direct characteristic of particular editions. But every allegory features some shade of reality. You surely know that Lwt is one of inhabitants, living in (and supervising) these "other rooms" (AAWA, AMCA, HLSP, HLSP, SBA, ABA etc etc. And not some additional job at these "rooms" clearing/fixing is the main problem here, - the main problem is that this job just can't be done following current LW policy (but about that - later).
    • "attempt to deceive": take it easy, but contrary to above allegory, this term was used literally. I do believe that native Englishman could find a better, more gentle term for that, especially considering possibly subconscious nature of such attempt, but I just couldn't find any better translation for Lithuanian expression "bandymas suklaidinti", defining any attempt to misinform someone, describing events in a wrong sequence or interpretation. Sorry if my expression was too "hard", and I'm even ready to bring my apologies then, but I'm sure that it's better to let you know how some your movements may look like to seasoned admin eye. Both we are admins, thus in addition to "rooms", supervised by Lwt, we are supervising some other, much more important "rooms", populated by "LW policy", "Friendliness", "Goodwill", "Fair play", and other high-sounding-titled inhabitants. We should strictly safeguard them against any violation by anyone, admins included. So, if some admin reverts any other user legitimate edition, motivating revertion by illegitimate reason, you should remind him about LW policy. Remind him also that revert just can't seem well-meant, if that reason (regardless - valid or not) even doesn't exist at the moment of revertion. Recommend him also avoid using exclamation marks in comments to such editions - some users may interpret them as unfriendly shouting, warning or expression of your dumbfounded astonishment. Yes, I didn't like this revert, but no more, - thus just rereverted it, supplying according reasoning. You found this undo "dubious". I'd understand, if you asked me to explain in more details the reasons of this undo. But no - you just rereverted my edition, telling me to go to AP if I wanna know the reason. And what I found here? Terrible story about unfriendly admin, suddenly and reasonless rereverting your editions and confusing other users. That sounded indeed unfair, especially right after another, very fresh our "discussion". I'm old and experienced, thus it's not easy to confuse me or make me anger. I know about your good intentions and this knowledge dims any possible momentary irritation. But not all our users have such experience or patience... Now try to answer honestly yourself: which edition could confuse and misguide mentioned newbie?
  • post-preamble:Well, sorry for such oversized preamble comments - hope they didn't made things even worse ;). Let's try to return to other your questions. But before that we should bring more definition and discuss some terms to make sure we are speaking about the same objects. Let's take term "Album" and statement "These albums do exist anyway". Hope with "Album" we have no any disagreements: one of most fundamental requirements for any LW-Album - it must be released; any my home-made audio CD or MP3 collection isn't an Album in LW terms. (there are more restrictions, but let's omit them). Things are more complicated speaking about the meaning of statement "This release does exist". It may be based on several quite different raison d'etre:
    • religious (based on belief): "I can't prove that, but Album (God) does exist anyway - I just trust in that"
    • scientific (based on facts and logics, often quite sophisticated): "Album (Black Hole) does exist - I can prove that logically from known (direct and indirect) facts, even without having possibility to see/touch it"
    • pseudo-scientific (based on mix of ignorance, un/intentionally selected invalid "facts" or/and awry logics): "Object does exist - I can prove that scientifically calculating the position of star Algol in the constellation Perseus, the most evil star in the sky"
    • sensory: "Object does exist - I can see/touch it"
    • informatics: "Any object doesn't exist till some (direct) information about this object existence is available"
You may like that or not, but current LW conception of Album existence evidence actually is based on the last approach: Album doesn't exist, if we don't have any reliable information about its release. Neither "scientific" nor even sensory arguments can't change this definition. I agree - that's very strict and limited approach, but for a while we don't know any other way to protect LW from flood of all kind fake objects. If you disagree with such policy - initiate, discuss and make required changes in it, but the most general schema of trusted editor work will remain the same:
  1. Strictly follow LW policy
  2. If some task goes in contradiction to the policy - change the task or policy if possible and follow #1. Otherwise - follow #1.
  • plain text: So, if Album does exist, LW-page may be created for it, and then this page should contain a complete tracklist, where each track is represented as link to its page (exception may be done only in rare cases, for albums with some non-musical tracks aside with songs). As you know, this requirement is valid even for songs without any lyrics (instrumentals). Thus I'd strongly recommend not to create any albums with incomplete (or "black") tracklists, using a simple list of songs with known lyrics instead, if such list is required for some reasons. For searchability reasons actual Album page then should contain only redirect to that list until it's incomplete.
  • homeless pages: Yes, indeed - our policies demand replacing producers, composers and such by an actual performer of the song. And that's valid for all songs, residing on artist and/or album pages. As was mentioned already, once album page was created, it should contain a full list of songs, titled according this requirement (lw:pn). But what if that's not an album (in lw-terms, discussed above)? What for should we violate lw policy, creating countless pseudo-album pages, with countless links to homeless, artistless, albumless and, what's the most strange - lyricless songs? Again - why just a simple subpage, listing only known songs, performed in particular language, can't be used? I see - you say that someone performed a big job, making a lists of these songs in each lang? Yes, it wouldn't be very wise (and fair) to just wipe it. But contrary to Album, simple subpage with songlist isn't an object of mentioned limitations of policy, ergo - it may contain not only incomplete, but "black" list also, if that's desirable.
  • Album pages (or WP and mutual support):
    • WP: No, "WP link referring in some way" isn't sufficient for using it as wp-link for any object until that's not a link to an article or at least a section, dedicated to that object. Our object is LW-Album or, to be precise, soundtrack album release. Have you checked these wp-links? Seems you've mentioned you have. But then you should have notice, that only root page of your project have a wp page, dedicated to this soundtrack release. All other wp-links lead us to the articles about film, even without any sections, dedicated to soundtracks. Strictly speaking, most of them don't contain any info about soundtrack release at all, thus all of them can't be used as any evidence of soundtrack release, ergo - should be removed (like mentioned Polish wp link)
    • mutual support: That's strange, but that's not the first time I hear your references to some lack of support, addressed to me. I even used to plead not guilty, trying to explain such strange your opinion by radical differences in the scope of our activities. Do you remember my explanation that my experience and the power of Lwt hardly may be effectively used for most of tasks you are supervising? Do you really think it would be better to use me together with my LWT for manual-editing-speed job instead of using bot for its native, multithreaded tasks? And finally - do you really think my contribution to LW and support for users are insufficient? Then I'm glad we started this discussion - I'd like to hear how I could improve my efficiency and user-support (mutual, surely).
  • resume: Resume is actually very simple: while policy isn't changed, it should be followed (after any change it should be followed also - that's exactly what it was created for... :)). And use better valid songlist subpage instead of invalid albumpage (wasn't that mentioned in my previous response?). Damn, what then I was talking about all this time (it took almost entire day)?! :). Once again sorry for oversized msg, - just one more evidence of my inability to explain something in a short and clear form. And take it easy, if you find some my wording improper again. That's all my broken English... :)
Cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 12:56, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

First of all: Sorry for getting back seven months late. I really appreciate your efforts to explain things. Nevertheless, I honestly did not know how to reply to your post for several reasons. One being that most of touched topics were/are obsolete, and I saw no way in explaining that without us getting entangled in lengthy statements. I hope we can leave that behind us now.

Second of all: I apologize for both the rerevertings of your edits. In both situations, I just wanted to seize the moment: I saw an opportunity to make users aware of certain means (listing songs on non-album pages, using mb as ref for native cap).

Here, as well as in our recent discussion, I was looking for documented policies. The reason for that is not because I wanted to be a pain in the a** :) but, additional to seizing the moment, because this way we can discover the gaps in our docs. That gives us the chance to complete or clarify them.

You're watching out for the rules, which is good and important. I'm trying to improve our docs (and build a user guideline system) and I'd like to think that this is good and important, too. So, knowing that, hopefully, next time sth. comes up it will be easier for the both of us to reach an understanding. (and maybe we can now stash away this thread to the archives :)  · Lichtweber talk service  18:56, January 4, 2015 (UTC)

Questionable translations

Can some of you check these translations in the languages they're familiar with? The German ones were horrible machine translations, and I suspect the rest are no better, but I'd like someone to check at least one other language before deleting the whole bunch. Thanks! — 6×9 (Talk) 07:32, July 26, 2014 (UTC)

This French one's a googlation, too.  · Lichtweber talk service  11:50, July 26, 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! — 6×9 (Talk) 20:17, July 26, 2014 (UTC)

Other Songs & {{split}}

For those who haven't followed the discussion on Senv's talk page, here's a quick recap:

  • The {{split}} template should be displayed on the artist page itself, not the talk page, where hardly anyone will see it – here is an example how it might look.
  • The severity thresholds should be raised somewhat; more importantly, for artists with few OS (e.g. less than 10) tl:split should be left off; instead {{stub}} should be added if there are no albums at all.
  • Some flexibility could still be allowed; like a lower level when OS count is near the lower threshold and more songs are allocated to albums than in OS.

Any objections or suggestions? We still need to agree on thresholds; 10/30/80 seems reasonable to me, or maybe 10/30/90 for multiples of 3? — 6×9 (Talk) 14:10, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

Yep... any response - depressive picture :(.
Well, 6, - what's then your suggestion - start making changes, based on our opinion or try to wake up other admins?
--Senvaikis (talk) 10:23, October 20, 2014 (UTC)
Sounds very reasonable to me. Pics could be half the size, imo :)  · Lichtweber talk service  16:05, October 20, 2014 (UTC)
@Senv: Let's make it a full week and wait until Thursday; I doubt the OS will disappear :-) (And if they do – even better!)
@both: reduced size even more; I don't think going smaller than that would be useful… — 6×9 (Talk) 16:50, October 20, 2014 (UTC)

Week's up: I have updated the template documentation (going with 10/30/90). Someone please check that the wording is clear & I haven't missed/left out anything… @Senv: if you're OK with these rules, don't hesitate to let your tool loose – I know you want to :-) — 6×9 (Talk) 18:40, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

Documentation looks good to me. Trainman (talk) 01:30, October 24, 2014 (UTC)
I have to say, I like it! :) It's much easy for me to select the artist's or band's page on the category/split pages instead of the talk page. --Dr. Beat (talk) 00:37, December 22, 2014 (UTC)


Now that Lwt started his {{Stub}}-flagging tour, I come to find that we should work on this a little.

1. Appearance
For my taste it ruins the pages. Too big, too much unnecessary information. Suggestion: Split {{Stub}} into three separate tl:

2. Criteria
On which criteria selects Lwt the pages - sry if I missed sth from prev. discussions? For instance, the Chaim Topol page might not be complete but at least it has all required external sources and one complete album. Why flag this one a stub? Maybe we should work on the criteria, too?

And quite frankly: I doubt, if stub-flagging makes too much sense on our site because we are not an encyclopedia, are we? Imho it would be more important to mark misattributed song and artist pages in some way, for instance TV-Shows (Family Guy) as artists, or Disney as an LW artist. What do you guys think?

3. How to stop Lwt from flagging on his next tour?
Some artists pages will not ever become "non-stubs", for instance Friedrich Schiller: He's been dead for a while now, and I don't think we can expect any releases from him ;). So is there a possibility to fmark those "eternal stubs" in some way, so that the pages won't be flagged a stub again?  · Lichtweber talk service  12:48, October 24, 2014 (UTC)

  1. I'd agree that info structure, produced by {{Stub}}, is little clumsy, but I'm not sure if splitting it into 3 different templates would be a good idea. (@6:Maybe it would be possible to make this split "internal", depending on the page type?)
  2. You've accepted this criteria ((OS<10 AND Albums.count=0) -> stub) as "very reasonable" just 1 thread above. As you understand, albs.count should include both blue and red albums, so in one way or other, but artist links or just page text should parsed to count them. What this parsing shoud be based on, in your opinion? Hope you agree - on lw:pn. So. Lwt counts album links on artist page, using pattern "===?\s*\[\[.+?:.+? \(\d{4}\)\|(.+?) \(\d{4}\)\]\]\s*===?". (hope now you'll notice the part of pattern, mismatched on your sample page). I agree that such evaluation may seem too strict, but Lwt has no better choice as strictly following lw:pn. So, some artist may be misattributed to stub just only due to the typo in display part, as it has happened with Død Trær or Dzep. But on the other hand - weren't these "misattributings" useful?
  3. Leaving this part for your discussion with 6 or someone else, - sorry, but that's too long story for me atm...
--Senvaikis (talk) 18:41, October 24, 2014 (UTC)
  1. Not sure such a split is necessary; maybe a |reason= parameter would be the best solution, certainly the most flexible (leaving some default text if it's omitted). Automatic splitting by pagetype is problematic; can't use variable because tl:stub usually goes above all other templates, and {{PAGETYPE}} magic word is too easily fooled – try it on a song ending in "(Live)" or "(Demo)", I'm sure you can guess what will happen… Design def. needs work, although ugliness could be an incentive to fix the page and remove it ;-)
  2. and 3. Yes, there are probably cases which, by Lwt's current rules, would never be unstubbed (like artists with only a couple songs that only appear on VA compilations or soundtracks). For a single run that's not really a problem, but for maintenance (i.e. repeated runs) we'll need stricter rules. What should get flagged are:
  • pages with no blue internal wikilinks whatsoever (ah+af only, or with labels/genres but no linked rel.artists or members, or album(s) with only red links)
  • pages with OS < 10 and no albums whatsoever (including VA albums)
Schiller would be out in both cases. There are probably others where t:s is appropriate that I didn't think of… — 6×9 (Talk) 07:43, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
Back on pagetypes: if we do want to distinguish, the best way imo would be an optional parameter. I've put my version here. No categories added yet, but pagetype param would split into a/a/s subcategory. Pagetype-specific text would still be overridden by |reason. Colour could be switched for pagetypes too, else neutral grey would be the most… neutral choice (duh). — 6×9 (Talk) 09:08, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
I just want to chime in to say while I do like this on certain pages, it is completely unnecessary on pages where the OS are not on any albums (example), or the artist only has one or two songs (example 1 2). It's going to be a pain to find all of the pages like that but I guess it will have to be a gradual thing. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)12:34, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
1st example belongs to previous topic (though split was justified there).2nd example is badly chosen, since it's pretty much the textbook definition of a stub: 1 OS, no other internal links, hardly any header/footer info. If OS aren't on any albums, the section should be renamed from OS to "Non-album tracks" or such (as has already happened on 3rd example, so under stricter rules it wouldn't be flagged either).
What previous topic does it belong to? Admittedly sometimes reading Senv's posts can be difficult, so if you want to paraphrase which topic Brentalfloss belongs to that would be helpful. Secondly, Monkey Steals the Peach only has no info because no info can be found, this is the only info I can find, which doesn't say their hometown or any helpful information except for band members. Googling "Monkey Steals the Peach" mainly brings up a kung fu move of the same name.
Also, since when has "Non-album tracks" been an acceptable header for Other Songs? I always thought non-album tracks just went under Other Songs and there would be no problems. But I guess I never got that memo. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)13:21, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
Previous topic: the one right above this one, about {{split}}. The "Non-album tracks" header never made it onto the help page, but it does state explicitly that the ultimate goal is to remove the OS section.
RE: Monkey: list of members is hardly "no info", add that to {{ArtistInfo}} and it can be unstubbed. If really no info can be found at all, the page in question is a candidate for deletion. — 6×9 (Talk) 14:40, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
Ah, okay. So the "Non-album tracks" header is a relatively new thing for this project? Gotcha.
And that makes sense. But really, deleting an artist page even if a song of theirs has lyrics here? We've never done that before - we've always had artist pages for artists who only have a few songs, and they've always been there. Is that a new thing for this project as well? Strange - that'll take some getting used to. I mean, there's definitely more obscure artists out there who barely have any info on the Internet - if at all - so that poses a problem if we're just going to delete all of the artist pages with no info. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)14:58, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
If there are songs with lyrics, we'll need some sort of verification those songs actually exist – there's just too much garbage on other lyric sites that got imported here. I'm not suggesting deleting anything where mb & discogs come up empty, but if a page was bot-created and the only results on google are other lyric sites, then that's a fair candidate.
OTOH, if an artist is known to exist but there's still no info to put on the artist page, then it will have to remain a stub. I don't think removing a useful flag just because there are potentially pages that might never be unflagged is a good idea. — 6×9 (Talk) 18:19, October 29, 2014 (UTC)
I haven't read this entire thread yet, but have a suggestion: Can the description of the AlbStub be changed to include a ref to albs with no lyrics? Something like: If all the tracks on this album are red please try to blue at least one of them... (not being a policy wonk) methinks an alb with no song is a flub and a stub...
I have been flagging all red tracklist albs with deletion flag and seems I have really confused some folks, I am sure If Chris was around he would've read that flag to mean attention not deletion! ;) --ES (talk) 19:55, January 16, 2015 (UTC) tbc..

Minor, but peculiar changes to the site

As I wait for a response to my above message, I've noticed three things over the past few months that I wanted to bring up. I would have brought them up earlier, but I was waiting to see if they'd get fixed on their own - and they haven't. Hopefully it's not just me, but there's been a few minor things changed on this site, most likely glitches.

1) The "preview" button doesn't work on song and artist pages (it works fine on album and talk pages). When I press the "preview" button on song and artist pages, I am taken to a white screen and my work on the page gets destroyed, thus I have to redo my work on a page...especially frustrating if I'm checking to see how an artist page looks after cleaning OS. I mentioned this to Sean on FB a few weeks ago and he said he brought it up with the team that manages bugs, but weeks later there's still no fix.
2) When I create a page, I'm taken to the "Create a new article" pop-up box, that asks you to choose a page layout: top 10 list, standard layout, and blank page. Other wikis have this but we have never had it as long as I've been here - why is it arriving now? It's rather taxing to have it pop up for each new page I create - for example, when I'm creating pages for all of the songs on an album.
3) Much more minor thing, but the picture thumbnails for the "Photos" tab on the right of the Wikia layout have not been showing up. All I see are white boxes.
Hopefully I'm not the only one experiencing these changes, and I just wanted to mention them here. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)23:21, October 28, 2014 (UTC)
Looking at the first one... it appears to be caused by the ToneFuze ad script. Hopefully a straightforward fix.
The second one is some extension... I forgot the name of it, but we could ask Community to re-disable it (LyricWiki has it's own solution for new pages that doesn't involve a popup and is more customized).
Haven't looked at #3 yet
-Sean Colombo (talk) 23:33, October 28, 2014 (UTC)
I submitted a pull-request for the bug, but I'm not sure when it'll be released. -Sean Colombo (talk) 00:09, October 29, 2014 (UTC)
As for the third issue, I only see blank white boxes also. Very weird (it's not like that on other wikis... I don't immediately see what's causing it). Probably worth sending to Special:Contact -Sean Colombo (talk) 00:13, October 29, 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for looking at this, Sean. Hoping for a fix soon Smile
And also, one more thing I forgot to mention - I noticed pages haven't been showing changes immediately like they have in the past, namely when it comes to links. For example, if I create a song on an album, that song will still appear as a red link on the album page for some time before it becomes blue. If I click on said red link, it'll take me to the "Create a new article" dialog box, but if I just press the "Add a Page" button on it it'll take me to the page I created. It's strange. Same goes for album art - it takes a while to show up, as well. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)19:55, October 29, 2014 (UTC)

Spotify vs Goear?

Hi all,

just wanted to ask you - haven't you ever thought why such limited source as goear is still used as the standard external audio source on LW? I'd be really surprised if anyone of you were using it as the main audio-source for your own needs... That was one of reasons why I trained Lwt to gather spotify info, - hope you've noticed already changes in the size of Category:Spotify/Artist and Category:Spotify/Album.
Now the main Q: what would be your opinion about the idea to move {{spotify}} into (Artist/Album/Song)Footer(s)?
Tia, --Senvaikis (talk) 21:39, November 17, 2014 (UTC)
The odd occasion I used goear, It didn't have what I was looking for. In the past two days since I been back I have used spotify at least two dozen times, and they are well stocked. I been keeping an eye on LWT, and surely it's spot on as usual.
ES (talk) 22:19, November 17, 2014 (UTC)
Spotify is fine too, but we should definitely keep goear since it's reg free.  · Lichtweber talk service  15:53, November 18, 2014 (UTC)
Yay! I've always wanted a Spotify external link plug-in here, as it helps us who do have Spotify (like myself) get to high-quality music quicker. But I do agree with 'weber - despite Goear's various inconsistencies, glitches, and the fact that it's a Spanish language site, it should stay because no registration is required. However, if it was possible to replace Goear with Grooveshark, I would much prefer Grooveshark over Goear because it is also registration-free and a much more stable site (and in English, which helps) XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)23:13, November 18, 2014 (UTC)
tl:Spotify isn't exactly new… I've no problem with integrating it into SF, but I 3rd LW's & Nic's points about registration. — 6×9 (Talk) 06:29, November 19, 2014 (UTC)
Not sure what is the issue about registeration?! All one needs is a hole in the wall address (gmail, hotmail, etc.) ES (talk) 17:53, November 19, 2014 (UTC)
@6: I know it's not "new" technically, but I never saw it in the external links section once. The fact that it's now being implemented everywhere thanks to Senv, I'd say it's new in that sense.
@ES: Registration might be simple on those sites, but we want to link sources where registration doesn't hinder the person from listening so it's accessible to anyone who visits this site. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)22:06, November 19, 2014 (UTC)
Well, let's leave then sptf outside of footers, though I still think that we should do something to make ranking requirement for audio src more fair, not limited by one poor Spanish site. I just didn't expect that almost automatic access via gm or fb account may even bother current fb-hooked generation ;). Anyhow, I hope that doesn't make current Lwt "spotifying-job" needless ;)
Agree with xx regarding GS, but ufortunately I'm not able to get authenticated access to their api yet. And it has one more flaw I just hate - link to the same type GS-object may have different formats, and I don't understand what is the reason and algorithm of these differencies. Spotify is just ideal source from that point of view, - simple, clear, universal and easy fitting into a simple, user-friendly algorithm.
Regardless of result of this discussion I have two additional questions, both addressed mostly to Six:
  1. What'd you say about a little improvement of {{spotify}} - additional switch for "search" (empty template) regime? Lwt is too dumb to find all the lw-sptf matches, thus such option would make this task easier for users. Here are possible patterns for such search links:
    • "{{#var:artist}}"
    • "{{#var:artist}} album:{{#var:album}}"
    • "{{#var:artist}} track:{{#var:song}}"
  2. As you've positively noticed, I'm using "play.spotify" instead of "open.spotify", currently used in template, - for 3 reasons. First of all, that's a real final address your browser is being redirected anyhow. Second - contrary to "open.." it allows searching. And third (partialy due to the 1st) - it's ~1.5x faster. In addition, such addressing doesn't start playing any random song while opening artist or album page. That's why I'd suggest to use it not only for search, but for lookup patterns too.
--Senvaikis (talk) 09:39, November 20, 2014 (UTC)
Unimpressed with their webplayer… IE11 is stuck with an empty grey background, icons on the left disabled, the forum is full of people reporting the same thing, but no solution. Opera 12 is stuck with "Connecting to Spotify", icons on the left disabled, the forum is full of people reporting the same thing, but no solution. Finally got it to work in Iron.
Implemented your suggestions in {{Spotify/Test}}, seems to work on the dozen pages I tried (incl. non-latin). Annoying that I can't just use urlencode, because they want pink%20floyd instead of pink+floyd… Also, am I correct in assuming that ID is always 22 chars long? — 6×9 (Talk) 10:30, November 23, 2014 (UTC)
  • That's sad to hear about O12's & IE11's problems (thought the latter shouldn't surprise anybody...). Let's hope these problems will be solved in a nearest future. May only say, that in addition to SRWare Iron, FF33 & Chr39 don't have any probs with sptf.player right now.
  • Never have checked that, but seems your assumption is right. Knowing your love to n-based number games that's hardly necessary, but just for others I may add that's a base-62 number :)
cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 18:10, November 23, 2014 (UTC)
Cr is hardly surprising, since Fe is based on it… Unfortunately, knowing that it's [0-9A-Za-z]{22} is of little help without regex extension; checking for validity with available functions (unless using loops) would make this template bigger than sh+sf combined…
I'll merge it into the main template; if there are valid codes with len != 22 we'll find out soon enough, I guess. — 6×9 (Talk) 18:33, November 23, 2014 (UTC)
Yep... Just don't know, - good that or bad, but spotify became an undoubted leader in competition of external links :)
Btw, for those who don't mind spotify-"registering" or adding a few lines into user.js, I'd like to show, how spotified LW page may look like and how does it work on my box. (no need to say - not for ie admirers...)
cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 09:06, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

RE: Grooveshark (and kinda related to the topic of Pandora on my talk page), they're unavailable in Germany (once again thanks to GEMA), so not an ideal alternative either… — 6×9 (Talk) 08:19, November 29, 2014 (UTC)

Spotify links also aren't 100% available, but this limitation is organized more in Youtube-style: each link has an "available_markets" field, specifying a list of countries it's available on. Should confess, that this field has been ignored by Lwt while "spotifying" lw. Result - some spot-links will "play" not in all countries... But the number of such limitatons shouldn't be high, moreover, - some of them have alternatives with a "wider market". Thus I'm still wondering - if pandora still resides in footers, - why spotify can't? :) --Senvaikis (talk) 09:59, November 29, 2014 (UTC)
From what I read above no one seems opposed to sf.spotify, so I suppose your actual question is why it isn't already? :-) — 6×9 (Talk) 13:32, November 29, 2014 (UTC)
While SF is about to go into the oven... How about search link for am as well?ES (talk) 13:47, November 29, 2014 (UTC)
Put both in {{SongFooter/Test}} – downside is that it displays spotify search even with link below, so the > 700,000 ids will have to be moved into sf quickly after merging. Or is anyone opposed to spotify search in sf? — 6×9 (Talk) 16:07, November 29, 2014 (UTC)
*crickets* Should I interpret silence as "no"? — 6×9 (Talk) 10:18, December 6, 2014 (UTC)

90.19X. Anon = Mkaloga?

Hi guys, I had to block several IPs starting with 90.19X. over the past weeks since Mkaloga was blocked. They all had the same pattern as Mkaloga, f.i. trying to recreate "Deekestrelz" or adding bad formatted "Flatlinerz" songs. Is there a technical solution for blocking all these anons automatically? Blocked IPs:


WHOIS (excerpt)

% Abuse contact for ' -' is ""
role: BSkyB Broadband Hostmaster
address: Sky Network Services
address: 1 Brick Lane
address: London
 · Lichtweber talk service  14:11, December 13, 2014 (UTC)

Before the move to Wikia we had an option for range blocks, now I'd guess only the W. staff could do that. Anyway, blocking a whole /13 range is probably not a good idea: that's > 500k adresses, way too much collateral damage. I think a better solution is to protect the pages/pagetitles in question from unlogged users (done for Flatlinerz & Deekestrelz), and put them on your watchlist. — 6×9 (Talk) 15:33, December 13, 2014 (UTC)
I tried diggin' up the range block IP discussion of years ago, no luck. Indeed range blocks were frowned upon. ES (talk) 15:53, December 13, 2014 (UTC)
Thx, 6! OK, now I have protected all the artist pages that have been affected by "AnonMkaloga": Gravediggaz, Ka, KA, Scream Thugs-A-Hair, Bone Thugs-N-Harmony. Does that mean that also the name space for those artists is protected from editing by anons?  · Lichtweber talk service  17:32, December 13, 2014 (UTC)
Unfortunately not… We'll have to keep an occasional eye on recent changes. But we need to do that anyways. — 6×9 (Talk) 15:48, December 14, 2014 (UTC)


I asked 6 about this couple of years ago, time to take his suggestion ;) I guess, after a lil nudge from Nick:

me:Take a look at Category:Lists - what is the correct namespace for lists? Main or LyricWiki:Lists/ ?
6:I'd prefer LW:L/ but it's never been policified; better bring it up with other admins on AP -- 6

So there. Where should lists go? I hope Nick will elaborate on his concerns in his own words. Hopefully this will lead to a short & sweet doc on list creation, now that we are moving some of the non-artists that have been pretending to be artists into the list-space. I'll do as much of the work as I can, but need input. ES (talk) 16:04, December 13, 2014 (UTC)

As always, I am for simple. So I'd go with Main. ES, what about categories for lists? Did you have some in mind?  · Lichtweber talk service  17:35, December 13, 2014 (UTC)
I honestly was never ever a list user, but now I'm thinking the list prime category I'll use will be the one containing former artists (teevee shows, musicals, etc.). Here is Nic's comments, btw:
Nic: lot of the lists on here are all over the place - some have certain categories while some don't. Also, all of the categories on each list should be formatted like Category:Lists|Rock Band 3, for example, so they're alphabetized correctly. It would be nice if someone could do some maintenance work on the categories on the lists here. Also, is it necessary to have both Category:Genre/Soundtrack and Category:Genre/Soundtrack/Video Games on video game lists?
So I think if we consolidate the list namespaces into One, and properly organize and weed out the existing categories, then finding the right location for new lists should be relatively straight forward. That's what I have for now. My original concern waay back was only about bringing order to list space and nothing more!
(neat freak ;) --> ES (talk) 18:31, December 13, 2014 (UTC)
@6: What would be the cons, locating lists in Main?  · Lichtweber talk service  12:25, December 14, 2014 (UTC)
Mainly a blurring between lists and "proper" artist pages; if lists occupy their own namespace, it's obvious even from the pagetitle what they are. Plus, they're easy to find via PrefixIndex even if category is missing. Of course, both of these could as well be achieved with "Lists/" prefix in main namespace. It's not a major point for me; if others prefer "unadorned" pagenames, I'll go along with that. — 6×9 (Talk) 15:30, December 14, 2014 (UTC)
OK, I changed my mind about where to locate lists: I'm for LyricWiki:Lists. That would be two in favour of LW:L and 1 (nic) in favour of Main, right? Can we move on now?  · Lichtweber talk service 

Public LW Definition for Artist

moving discussion from my talk page here  · Lichtweber talk service  12:25, December 14, 2014 (UTC)

Is Sesame Street and The Simpsons and a whole lot of fan generated music for various tv franchises (not Simpsons or SS, obviously) really artists? Where is our clear definition of what an artist is? I see what you did with FF yesterday and cheered u on from across the pond. It probably is not as simple as I think, so again, I'm all ears and want to hear what you got! ES (talk) 10:16, December 12, 2014 (UTC)

Afaik, it isn't defined anywhere yet, though when talking to Senvaikis I always get the impression that it was somehow. In the root pages discussion, we agreed that not only performers but also lyricists and composers are legit artists for LyricsWiki.
So, according to this agreement Sesame Street and The Simpsons are misattributed. But maybe it would make sense, as an exeption, to accept bogus artists with such a huge output as LW artists? I definitely would not want to have Family Guy as an artist, though... What's your opinion on this, Senv, 6, Nic and Dr. Beat?  · Lichtweber talk service  13:18, December 12, 2014 (UTC)
Well imho size of discography under their name doesn't bring any significance, Homer still doesn't do anything real artists do :) I slapped a tl|Req4Edit on Power Rangers, and Backyardigans and erroneously moved Backyardigans to LyricWiki:Lists/The_Backyardigans, which according to 6 is iffy due to the already started discussion in AP. ::Appreciate if I can leave such dubious artist in your care until you need my help to deal with them, in the coming months and years. cheers! Oh and see my talk page about that espanol Amanda  :) ES (talk) 10:07, December 14, 2014 (UTC)
No way me moving all those pages without a bot. I guess we have to dicuss this one on AP , too.
On behalf of LyricWiki:Lists/The_Backyardigans I suggest you get in touch with Hornean since he seems to be into those pages.  · Lichtweber talk service  11:56, December 14, 2014 (UTC)
"Artist" pages should def. be converted into lists – it's useful to have a show's songs on a single page, but that doesn't make the show an artist.
As for the songs themselves… "For songs from TV shows, cast recordings etc. there's the problem that with the current scheme we'd end up with loads of {{stub}}by artist pages (or wanted pages) for voice artists or actors who only ever contributed to one or two songs. Maybe it'd be better to use "Cast Of Show XYZ" as prefix and as alias in {{Song}} to avoid that (not to mention having unknown artists in there as well); the performers could be listed in fa or CreditBox instead." Yes, I c&p'ed that from Lichtweber's talk page. I'm lazy.6×9 (Talk) 15:43, December 14, 2014 (UTC)

OK, I went ahead and set up a draft for a definition of what an artist is in the LW sense. Help appreciated, especially wording, examples, etc.

I also made {{Misattributed}} in order to slap it on all the bogus artists, and list them on Category:Misattributed. I hope that's ok with you guys, any comment much appreciated.  · Lichtweber talk service 

Looks good to me though I think 2px border is enough. I wouldn't even create a separate help page, but put it at or near the top of H:F/A. — 6×9 (Talk) 20:29, December 14, 2014 (UTC)
Updated Help:Artist (section of Help:Contents/Editing/Formatting/Artists, examples still wanted, though
tl|misattr: border 3px, "criteria" instead of "requirements"  · Lichtweber talk service 
Ought to be some examples in here:
List of fictional music groups
Virtual band#Notable groups.2Fperformers --ES (talk) 10:45, December 15, 2014 (UTC)
There are also other types of non artists, besides tv and movie related objects. What I call non recording artists: artists who only exist on lyric sites, or myspace, they are essentially just a text string with so called lyric/poetry attached; the kind that we have started nuking recently. Then there are University bands and church ensembles that may burn a disk once in a while. The non artists that have no real definition and are in no list... --ES (talk) 13:44, December 21, 2014 (UTC)
I don't see why Universtiy bands and Church ensembles should not be listed here if their existence can be proved by external link(s).
So how would you put a help page section concerning those other non.rec artists?  · Lichtweber talk service  22:57, January 3, 2015 (UTC)
All Church choirs perform the same hymns, which we either have or can fetch from dedicated sites, I think effort in providing translations would be worthwhile. My concern about uni's were unfounded!
As for the new way of dealing with pages like Simpsons, Strawberry Shortcake, I think we may define what things should look like so our enthusiastic editors don't end up creating mangled mess of red links and misattributions. Things like inserting featured singers in the middle of SongHeader while leaving the Composer/lyricist out in the cold. As a test case, i'd like to see how Simpsons/Seasame Street will be treated, also based on 6's comments further up. We need a Pink Floyd analogue for the non artist artists, a so called Oink Floyd :) --ES (talk) 10:43, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
I don't think (re)admitting XYZ-Cast as prefix is a good idea: I'm afraid it will confuse users. Maybe in such cases we can establish lyricists as artists for vocal tracks, composers as artists for instrumental/score tracks, and performing artists go into fa, if retrieveable. I think that would be easy and clean.  · Lichtweber talk service  17:19, January 13, 2015 (UTC)
It all depends on our ref sites and quality of their listing. Any work by Rogers and Hammerstein or other composer/lyricist pairs is just a piece of cake; the pair are the AlbumArtists, singers/puppeteers and gafferboys sit in SH.fa and indicated as such in CB down below. Inadequately documented albums lead to cast etc. Please also note that in the case of Dr's fav show, "SB SC" is the performing entity, legally defined as such, for reasons that should be obvious, so let's all look far and think hard before making up policies. Licht would be great if you'd kindly set up a page for the tv/movie related discussions, if it seems to be a burden for AP. --ES (talk) 09:46, January 14, 2015 (UTC)
What is "LyricWiki:Lists/Strawberry_Shortcake"? Could you give me a link, please?  · Lichtweber talk service  15:45, January 22, 2015 (UTC)
Next up: Special Purpose Artist  · Lichtweber talk service  14:21, January 21, 2015 (UTC)
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