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LyricWiki talk archive for Administrators Portal
<< August - October 2008 November - December 2008 January - February 2009 >>


Botched Move

Ok let's get this Botched Move fixed up, or find a way to deal with the articles to be merged, which is the spawn of Botched Move that needs the fix. What is there to consider in the case of MergeTo and MergeFrom? What parts can be Botified. And what can be done about tens of thousands of redirects that should all be normalized and just become one table with only entries for artists? I'm all ears :) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 08:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Help Desk

While discussing Help:Contents/Getting Started/Additional Help on my talk page, User:Team a suggested having a Help Desk like at Wikipedia. I think the idea for LyricWiki:Help Desk has merit, and we could link to that page, as opposed to the Community Portal, for help-type questions. I wanted to see what you all thought before hand, as we would be the ones putting it on our watchlists to keep up with things.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   02:24, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Gets my vote.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 03:26, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I'll jump on that ... as long as there's a FAQ so I can make fun of loser who don't read it before posting! --Aquatiki - T - E 03:28, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
aye ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 04:13, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Since you have a way with words Mr Kiefer, can I propose you set this page up, provide the links and instruct users of it's existence and purpose? Many thanks for bringing our attention to this idea!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 15:08, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

OKAY! The LyricWiki Help Desk has finally been created and the related Help page has been updated. (It's amazing how other things can get in the way!) Please place the Help Desk page on your watchlists, so that this can go well and we can get rid of the often-forgotten {{Helpme}} template!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   02:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Kiefer! Excellent job! (On my watchlist)  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 02:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
It's on my watchlist. Race you all to helping people! team atalkctrb 01:53, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Artist fLetter

"When creating a new page, the magic that inserts and fills out the appropriate song, album or artist template still skips "The " and uses whatever comes after, although it should be "T" (at least that's what documentation says). This might confuse a lot of users. " 6 times 9 I tested this and The Ramblin Gamblers get "R" as artist fLettter, can we have either the docs or the template updated to reflect the current standard? ;) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 02:59, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

My 2 cents is that we should change the documentation, and keep the sorting the way that it is. Personally, I don't think it makes any sense to sort "The Decemberists" by "T" (or any other The [insert arbitrary term here] page).
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 06:47, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I'll add my 2 shekels to the pot king started ;) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 06:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I'll just copy-and-paste my reply from Sean's talk page here:
This has been discussed many times in the past, and the difficulty comes with the site being an international database. We aren't English-only, both in terms of content and users, and the organization shouldn't be English-centric because of this fact. Changing fLetter with regards to the page beginning with an article would be a bit confusing for non-English speakers. Try explaining to a Japanese user that "The Kinks" is filed under K because "The" is a part of speech called an article. Then do the same for a Russian user and a Spanish user and a French user and a Chinese user, etc., etc., etc. The answer to this situation, I feel, is creating sub-categories for The, A, and An titles and sub-sub-categories for each letter A-Z. Much like we do for Hometowns and Languages. Bot work, I would think.
   Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   19:29, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
A further request  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 15:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Just to let everyone know, since Sean didn't reply on his talk page, but archived the fLetter discussion - the automatic fLetter for Artist, Album, & Song auto-templates has been corrected for The, A, & An. I tested it and it looks wonderful. Thanks, Sean! Now, I guess, we need to decide how to sub-categorize them.  :-p    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   19:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Partial Transclusion

Aikon- had a smart point over on the community portal that y'all may not've seen, so I wanted to copy his idea over here. What if, on every album page, we enclosed all the #'s in >onlyinclude< ? Like this:

{{ Album
| blah = blah

# [[Dude:Song|Song]]

{{ Album Footer

This would mean artist pages could be simplified to look like this:

== [[Dude:Album (1234)|Album (1234)]]==
{{Album Art|Dude - Album.jpg}}
{{:Dude:Album (1234)}}

Is there some hole in this logic I'm not seeing, or is this a cool idea? Would it break the API? Could be fix that? What d'you guys think? --Aquatiki - T - E 22:58, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I found that template in a cupboard a few weeks back look >>> User_talk:Pathoschild#Les_Cowboys_Fringants And yes you're right to ask about the API. I suspected it would present a problem, which is why I got Senv to test it out for me. He confirmed that it does Pity, cos I thought it was really cool too.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 00:36, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Well if we implement it site wide, couldn't they change the API? --Aquatiki - T - E 04:05, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand anything about API but Pathoschild suggested parsing the page before extracting the data parsing example with Wikimedia's API. I don't know if that helps at all.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 14:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
OK, people, I'm serious about this! Why can't we change album pages to include this and make artist pages super-stupid-simple?!?! Tell me why we can't do this! --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 08:14, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

The Lost Songs: Where Are They Now?

SEE ALSO: :Category:Requests For Moves post.

Okay first please read this User_talk:Redxx#Work_for_a_Bot.

K, now for my list of twenty questions (lol):

What I want to know is where are all these songs, the ones that were on Waterboys page before it was redirected? Because as 6 times 9 has confirmed, they sure haven't ended up being plonked down on The Waterboys page. I also want to know where all the songs are that were on the following three artist pages before they were made into redirects: C&C Music Factory, C C Music Factory, C&c Music Factory? And the songs that were on the Eightball and MJG artist page that was recently redirected, where are they?

How many other song pages are floating around in LyricWiki cyberspace like this?? Surely they must be listed on some kind of orphan type list somewhere?? If they're not, then how does anyone know to allocate them? I always thought that it was part of Janitor's job to allocate song pages to artist pages of the same name and I know Janitor has been out of action since the upgrade, but the Waterboys page was redirected and the song pages renamed correctly to The Waterboys back in July.

Talking of Janitor, where does he take his information from? The song page name? (correct = The Waterboys) The song template? (incorrect = Waterboys) The song footer? (incorrect = Waterboys) and how do these differences affect things?

Which also leads me to ask whether it would be possible that when a page is moved, the artist name gets auto corrected in the template's?

I hope someone can explain all this to me because I feel I must be missing something important here. Whatever, I sure am getting somewhat confused!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 00:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I made Janitor's name a link to show you one answer: he hasn't been active since September 18. (Look at his contribs) --Aquatiki - T - E 04:07, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Janitor does a very simple task (just over and over and over again really fast). He scans Special:Lonelypages for any page that is not an artist page (basically being anything with a colon), strips to the colon, generally meaning the artist in question but not always, and goes to that artist page, follows any redirects and deposits that page into the other songs section. Right now he of course is not doing anything, since teknomunk has been too busy to re-write Janitor for the new MediaWiki version.
No Janitor means no clearing off a page for a rebuild. You can do this yourself (emulate Janitor) by scraping any orphaned pages from LonelyPages.
What we really need to watch out for is something that occurs when an artist is batchmoved. This is something I have always hated about how Wikimedia is set up, because if you move a page, there is a redirect, and now that page will not show up on lonelypages. So these semi-lonely, redirect-page pairs become something that you can only find if you know exactly where they are.
Janitor's current way is essential, don't get me wrong, but it needs to be updated, because obviously there are a lot of pages getting lost in the shuffle.
The basic meaning of all this is that there are a lot of pages doing exactly what you said, Red: Floating Around. As of this, despite much pondering, I have never really come up with way to pull those semi-lonely pairs back out of the sea of information that is LW.
Sorry if this is a little rambling, I am a bit tired.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 05:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
We have three places where the Song is defined: Page name, Song Template & SongFooter. Same goes for Artist, it's already defined in page name, why again in Song Template and Song Footer separately? I think this is part of the problem, too much redundancy. Too many pages sitting out there gathering dust. We don't even have a reliable song count, redirect count, artist count, etc. I'm frustrated too. Category:Songs Only Referenced in Redirects anyone? If a bot can help out, let me know. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 06:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
There are two things we can do (speaking as an owner of a complicated wiki myself) run rebuild.php server-side or people with bot can do over the entire wiki. I think rebuild might make the site run super-slow for days, while touch might take weeks. ---Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ § 07:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Aqua, I don't understand which of the problems mentioned above will be fixed by rebuild.php or Would that take care of the redirects that don't show in lonely pages? Did anyone figure out why the page count has been going down so noticeably recently? Maybe some server side task invisible to us is already doing some of what needs be done and all those pages disappearing ARE the silly redirects. Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know? ;) Should we be keeping a redirect page named "Allman Brothers:song" when "The Allman Brothers:Song" already exists? Shouldn't this be taken care of by one redirect from "'Allman Brothers" to "The Allman Brothers" and let LW handle the rest. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 08:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm thinking that there were a number of "hiccups" in the move, and that the page counts were one of them. The dip in numbers seems to have happened precisely in time with the Bot Family's meddling with artist pages, so I think a lot of this is simply erroneous numbers being corrected. Running redirect would (I think) correct all these at once. Also, there is a much less massive page_count.php or something like that as well.
I didn't think redirects ever showed up on lonely pages.
You are right, Artist Redirects should handle the Allman Brothers examples you mentioned. --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 09:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
This is the advice I received about deleting misnamed pages, waaay back User_talk:EchoSierra#Deletions. As for a semi accurate count of redirect pages...Lookie here:[[1]] there are 78,853 redirects (seems to be sorted chronologically, not alphabetically, . So Aqua, how about applying to that list? would the syntax be same as -cat? say the word.... ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 10:08, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Nope. Pywikipedia only works on cat's. I vote for getting Sean to run updateArticleCount.php and/or refreshLinks.php :-P --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 13:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Seems like I definitely opened up another can of worms here. Nice to know that not all my questions are "silly" (lol). I'm glad I asked. I only hope this matter will now be resolved.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 15:28, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Certainly not silly, Redxx! This one's been one of my favorite conundrums for a while. Would it be possible for a bot to go through PrefixIndex? I could think of a way that you could at least get a listing of semi-lonely pages.
To further confound on the subject of page count: If I remember correctly, the 818,000 number is the only number that we know from all page count. My understanding was that the second number was an assumption (Methinks a percentage ratio). Maybe was the ratio changed?
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 17:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Just so that everyone knowns, when the site was upgraded to the newest MediaWiki version, it broke my script's login, so until I get time to fix it, it is broken. When I find the time, I will get it working again.
- teknomunk (talk,E,,A) 22:29, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks teknomunk I hope Janitor gets better soon.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 01:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
King, you wrote about the redirect/semi lonely page pairs, suppose there was a way to find them, either via prefix index or list redirects or some other means... Then what? These pairs need to be looked for every day or week, as they continue to get produced. At any point in time any page in list redirects is a suspect for hiding a semi lonely page. There must be a way to fix this server side, as Keifer guessed (?), let's hope there is a way, no point ranking lost pages, eh? This matter gets my vote as the number one issue at lw. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 10:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
There would be a few things I would say about that: Awareness is key, for one. Awareness that clearing off a page for rebuild later has the potential for causing semi-lonely pages. Clear a page off for rebuild on any page that has been batchmoved, and you've screwed the pooch. I have petitioned the server side about this subject before, and it hasn't been done yet, but once somebody finds a clever solution hopefully it will. Once it does, once I have a list, I can go to town. I've done it with Deadend pages and Uncategorized pages. These were projects which probably added to be about 8,000 hand edited pages. One thing that I think would help immensely would be an Special:PrefixIndex with an easier-to-copy/paste output. Until that day where we can systematically hunt down semi-lonely pages, continue on your path. Think about this: If someone is building an artist page by putting in album links and building a tracklist, semi-lonelies can be found. If you can find a way to list these, or even candidates for semi-lonely, I am all ears.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 17:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


I bet you'all saw it over on the Community Portal, but I wanted to mention it here too, since you guys are the big wigs! {{ArtistHeader}} is a new template I'd like to see us put on top of every artists' page. As it stands, the top of artists' pages is the only place left where {{Wikipedia}} is called raw, and the only place where we'd be using {{Star}} raw. Mass changes to artist pages (e.g. making Green stars the default, even if not written) would have to be accomplished by bot'ing over the entire set of artists, a process that takes 2 to 4 weeks. Songs and Albums have a template at top and bottom, why not artists?

After the initial discussion over on T:CP, I think it would be prudent to consider what things we want at the top and what at the bottom. I suggest taking our cues from song pages, putting amazon, itunes, etc. at the bottom and links (related artists, hometown categories, genres, etc.) at the top.

The main reason I'm reposting this here, is that I'd like to go ahead and start putting {{ArtistHeader}} on artists' pages, as part of my effort to eliminate Category:Review Me. OK? --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 05:39, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Kiefer's Wish List

TOP: Wikilink, Alternative Wikilink for non-English artists (as on Falco, Genre, Related Artists, Labels, Hometown (with micro-flag?), Official Website link, Current Group Members (still leaving the current and former lists at the bottom).
BOTTOM: Footer as it current exists is fine.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   14:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree except on one thing: who wants to keep up two member lists, one at the top and one at the bottom?! Maybe there could be Current Members and a fold-up (i.e. show/hide like {{Star Box}}) section for previous members, all at the top? --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 16:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia does it all the time, but collapsible box is fine.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   05:24, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
This means that we are going to remove the parameters officialSite, myspace, wikipedia and genre from {{Album}} and take them for {{ArtistHeader}}, OK? --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 00:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC) You guys need to wake up or Team A and 6x9 are going to take over!
I propose we shelve this until we have got Page Ranking completely operational. However, if we are going to have to have this drastic change to artist pages then I'm with Kiefer. I don't like the idea of icons on top of page, not at all and I think the artist footer is fine as it is (*though I have requested icons be put there*). And whilst we can provide spaces for all this info, I do hope no one is seriously expecting that many people will be bothered enough as to actually go and research all this info and fill it in? I certainly won't! Yes, if a user volunteers to be the "watcher" of a page it's different, but otherwise? I think not.
And then what? Create yet another new category to go wrong - "ANRAI" - for the thousands of Artists pages Needing Related Artists Information (although I suspect this category already exists) which will no doubt result in a helpful user, an admin or two, spending weeks, or more realistically months of their time, locating and completing all this "missing" information, instead of using whatever time they can spare tackling the thousands of pages with long OS lists, formatting problems and missing lyrics? Is that really what we want?
Also, if Hometown is now to be made compulsory and have an obvious presence at the top of the page, who is going to pick the hometown for bands? Because if there's one English member I intend on putting put England!
When I came here I thought LW was a lyrics site, that LW didn't aim to provide discographies, etc., or to be a clone of Wikipedia. And yes, you're right. I am just a little fed up. I'm a little fed up of spending most of my time here on discussing problems that don't exist, instead of trying to resolve the thousands that do. Plus my microwave has just blown up. I have made further comments about my microwave on this page: User_talk:Kiefer#Re:_Recent_Batch_Moves_and_Deletions  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 21:23, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Hey Redxx, sorry about your microwave. I can certainly appreciate the frustrating amount of upheaval some of us have been proposing. I agree that we don't need to duplicate the effort of other sites. There is more than enough work for a zillion people just combing through lyrics and making redirects.
We should be concentrating on reducing the amount of work that people do, and delegating as much to machines as possible. This is why I've been pushing so hard for things the Semantic MediaWiki, to help automate the site.
Unfortunately, the in between stages from here to there have created more work, not less. For example, my Page Ranking stuff has generated more junk to do, when it was intended to be a way to focus energy.
I think if we simplify the system, it will all be a lot less confusing. It will be different than LW was in the beginning, but it will be better. I consider right now to be the eighth month of pregnancy: we're bloated and uncomfortable, and in some ways the worst is yet to come, but soon enough we will emerge a new entity, fresh and different. Sorry for all the bloating crap in the meantime. --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 06:22, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
You have nothing to apologize for Aqua. I like to do my best and I've just been finding it impossible to keep up with everything. That's basically what I was trying to say. I'm sorry to one and all for sounding off. I have a (bad) habit of speaking my mind. You'll get used to me....eventually  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 00:54, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Kiefer's Rules of LyricWiki

As perhaps it can help with the various conversations that have been going on recently:

  • Rule #1: Don't complicate things. (K.I.S.S.)
  • Rule #2: Remember to add to the database, not the bureaucracy.
  • Rule #3: Any formatting changes should be for the benefit of the user and usability, while not breaking any of the existing structure.
  • Rule #4: Don't begin anything that you aren't able or willing to finish on your own, but don't forget to ask for help when you need it.
  • Rule #5: Protect the integrity of the site from vandals and spammers.
  • Rule #6: Building the editing community is always top priority. (Without editors both "big" and "small", the site weakens and withers.)
  • Rule #7: Always remember that this is Sean's site. (All others borrow the site. We visit, we babysit, some of us may even be Aunts & Uncles, but it's his baby.)
  • Rule #8: If what you're doing on LyricWiki isn't fun, do something else. (Hopefully on LyricWiki, but this isn't a job & it isn't work, it's a hobby - a voluntary donation of time and skills and effort. It has to be enjoyable, or burnout will ensue.)
  • Rule #9: Listen to and love music. (Even better: Listen to and love the music while on LyricWiki. It's a reminder of why we're here.)
  • Rule #10: Remember that admins are not all-knowing, all-powerful, and omnipresent. (Although there's a rumor that Redxx is perfect.)

There you are. There may be more, but I think that this covers things pretty well in my head.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   04:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't help but imagine Charlton Heston holding some stone tablets aloft. :D I couldn't agree more.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 04:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Rule #11: Set the (music) volume to 11 ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 05:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC) ducking & running
Rfl@Charlton Heston. I may have lost my crown to Jim, but you aren't seriously expecting that I will be able to keep Rule#1... are you Kiefer?? K.I.S.S.? Me? Redxx?
 ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 00:43, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
(Btw it ain't no rumour, it's fact!)
You do keep things simple though, Redxx...simply fabulous!!!!  ;-] And Rule #11...yes...yes, indeed. Rock on.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   01:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

LyricWiki:Long Term Projects

I have created this page to list long-term goal/projects that are taking months to complete. --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 03:11, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

iTunes at ArtistFooter

How come Artist footer doesn't show the iTunes icon like song & album pages do? just curious. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 22:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I made an optional parameter where you can put in the number if you find it with the Link Maker, but I haven't tried to have it produce something if the parameter is blank/missing. How could we do that? --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 01:54, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Look at Gordon Lightfoot. iTunes param is there but no icon, obviously if there is no itunes param there can be a itunes icon with a red slash (like a No Parking sign) to bring attention to it's absence and nag me to finish the toon insertion code ;) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 03:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I misunderstood. ... None of the other stuff in {{Artist}} produces icons. If we're going to change it, why not make all the parts make icons? --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 05:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
if you are messing with the {{Artist}}, you might as well roll in all the fixes due up to now.. why not indeed. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 05:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Me likes pretty things...  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 22:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
...Which itunes store (country) are we supposed to use? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 22:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about supposed to. I use U.S.A (because it's biggest and my bookmark defaults to that) but if that one hasn't got it listed I try U.K., etc.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 09:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Just in case... haven't got this page on your watchlist, see Template talk:Album.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 09:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Job Queue Jump

What caused the jump to 650,000? no sign of change to {{Song or {{SongFooter.... ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 14:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Not true! I changed Song and Film! --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 16:34, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Category Naming Policy

How about changing the "Category Name" from SNLI to Language/Unknown? Maybe simple minded but that would update all links or else it will be a test of whether new category definitions update properly. This should force an update due to name space being changed, methinks. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 20:00, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


Conflicting Instructions...

A user has pointed out that Help:Non-English_Songs#Article_Titles conflicts with what is said on LyricWiki:Page Names. Which is correct? And does this only apply to Japanese artists/albums/songs?  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 12:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if it's about 50 or so Japanese artists with ALL CAPS names... would be great if they get title cased. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 12:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Whilst what Echo says is completely valid, I thought perhaps I should explain that what I mean is that one page tells users:

Titles of songs and albums written in a non-latin based script should be placed under that title with the romanized version of the name in parenthesis...

Whereas on the other page it says:

The Album or Song page name should use only the title written in the native script, with no romanized version of the title added. Instead, add {{JaTitle}} with the appropriate romanization and translation in the song header.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 12:55, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

It's amazing that this has stood for so long, and yet two instances of it being a problem popped up in the same day. Weird, but it's been fixed.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   03:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Yeah exactly what I thought I couldn't believe it either. Thanks for fixing it.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 09:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
How about all those all caps Japanese artists? at least the ones not officially spelled that way... ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 10:34, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
The difficulty comes from (at least at my estimation and somewhat glancing knowledge of the Japanese culture) how the Japan view letterforms. To them, the particular character is very important. They have different writing "alphabets" for native language items (hiragana?), and for foreign language and word emphasis (katakana?), as well as the word ideograms (kanji?). In their culture, from what I understand, (and goodness knows I wish teknomunk was around to correct me if I'm wrong) capitalized roman letters are quite different to lowercase roman letters. So, if an artist has "SUPERFLY JAPANESE ARTIST" as their name on the album cover, that to them is different than "Superfly Japanese Artist", even if that is technically the correct way to do it in English. As I do not have much knowledge about the differences and they can be a bit tricky, I try to leave such things alone. Especially seeing as how I screwed things up yesterday when I tried to "fix" something in the Japanese realm. (See Kiefer's Rules of LyricWiki #10 above) I still cap initial letters, though. Hee hee!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   20:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


I'd like to hear what everyone thinks about User:Team a & User:6 times 9 becoming admins. They're doing admin-type projects, have shown positive community spirit, and have a good grasp of the site. Allowing them to delete pages and block ne'er-do-wells seems like a nice "Thank you." Leave a note here, or, if you have dirt on them and their connection to Icelandic child labor farms and don't want them to know it, you can always e-mail me. Thanks!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   03:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

If you ask me, I can't see why they shouldn't. I see their names around the site more than most peoples (including my own) and have never had a complaint against them. I can't even fathom that Team a has only been here since September (he's only 3 days older than our good friend Jim). Plus, of all the Icelandic child labor farmers I know, neither of them is one. Count my vote in. (And that's not even mentioning the amount of admin work their is lying around that we're too busy to get to) --WillMak050389 04:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I am definitely in. Ironically, Team a was just mentioning how he couldn't make changes to the album template (despite all the good work he's done to revamp it) because it is a protected template. I'd say that's a good reason to give adminship.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 08:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely! Can't speak highly enough of either of them! They are both doing a fantastic job.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 09:34, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Team a is a hard-working dawg! Give him a raise and adminship! --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 09:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm all for "Gun's N' Towels" ;) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 10:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone who said good things about me, and congratulations to 6x9. I'm honored to be an admin here. As one of the newest admins, I will be sure to start doing everyone's laundry and washing your cars right away. team atalkctrb 01:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

*stares in awe* New tabs! "view source" becomes "edit"! I'm almost tempted to go on a deleting spree... Thank you all for your kind words, and for bestowing this honour on me! And congratulations to Team a – it's certainly well deserved. (I'll even help washing the cars – I better stay away from the laundry though, unless people don't mind getting it back all wrinkled and in odd colours and five sizes too small...) -- 6x9 (Talk) 02:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Actually guys you were the runners up. We was going to ask Jim...  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 02:37, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
He declined because doing so would make it harder for others' posts to be "read, laughed at for its [sic] ignorance and ignored." Actually, he probably just didn't want to scrub the admins' locker room. team atalkctrb 03:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, he failed the stress test. Ah, it's good we can laugh.... Hey, Redxx (or anyone), do you know how to set things to autopatrol with the new update?    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   03:27, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Alt-F4, right? team atalkctrb 03:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Uh-oh, filling Jim's shoes will be a hard task indeed – at least if his shoe-size is proportional to his ego. I assume patrolled edits are those without the bold red exclamation mark? In that case the question should be how to set things to not autopatrol (assuming someone would want that), since I never set anything and my own edits show no !. -- 6x9 (Talk) 03:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Mine have disappeared too. I thought that was just my reward for "building character" team atalkctrb 04:37, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, DOUBLE-SWEET! I guess that means that the updated edition awesomely and automatically autopatrols admins edits. Sounds good to me. (Although quite a mouthful.) Now I don't have to ask each time we get a new admin (or two) that they autopatrol.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   05:04, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I looked as soon as I saw your earlier post Kiefer and had come to that conclusion too. And guys, though your edits may now be autopatrolled, don't think we still won't be watching you Eyes are everywhere...  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 11:58, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Bad pages now in broken redirects

The pages sitting here [2] are immune to bot and sysop edits (S2E2 was impersonating the Janitor). ES (Talk) 21:00, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I think we're gonna need Sean. These are pages which are defeating the MODREWRITE rules of URL renaming. --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 21:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Spring Cleaning

I know, I know, but "Fall cleaning" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

  1. Is there a way to get a list of all artist pages (basically like this, but in an editable form)? That way we could detect most, if not all, name variations (Faithfull Mariannes, omitted apostrophes and accents...) and clean them up.
  2. This one has come up before: Could we produce a list of "semi-lonely" pages, i.e. pages that aren't exactly orphaned, but have only a redirect link to them?
  3. Then there's the reverse: pages linking to a redirect. Not really a pressing problem, but it would be nice to get this cleaned up, too. -- 6x9 (Talk) 02:29, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Yep good ones, all necessary. I'll get you the artist list after a bot run on artist pages
∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 03:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
See here for Artists List User:EchoSierra/Sandbox
If anyone knows how #2 & #3 can be done with a bot, plz let me know. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 07:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC) Bolded by Redxx ;) 13:41, 13th January 2009 (UTC)
Great! Now, if someone could sort out the following: (1) pagenames consisting of the same words, but in different order (Faithfull Marianne, Rolling The Stones); (2) pagenames that differ only by one word with no more than three letters (Beatles/The Beatles etc.): (3) pagenames that differ only by non-letter characters (apostrophes, commas, periods...); (4) pagenames that differ only by one letter (typos happen); (5) pagenames with and without accents or umlauts (Arzte/Ärzte); (6) pagenames where German umlauts were replaced with the two-letter version (ä/ae, ö/oe, ü/ue, ß/ss); and of course (7) any combination of the above, and all of this case-insensitive. Quite a lot, isn't it? And I'm sure we can come up with more... -- 6x9 (Talk) 02:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Can someone help Humbug out with his "Mission" please?

User:Humbug/J Award. He's put so much effort into doing this, e.g. creating pages, getting lyrics, etc. etc. All he wants is the song by The Presets that is on his page (that he doesn't appear to have moved to the SOTD nomination queue) to be SOTD asap. He has kept on at Sean about doing this, but I expect Sean is very busy. It would also be great if someone could arrange this for's not a lot to ask. It would be even better if the album by The Presets was made AOTW too (but I don't think he's written a review). Although I'm not familiar with their music, the band must be pretty good to have won the 2008 award. Thanks.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 00:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for posting about it here. I remember seeing that J Award page of his, and I knew he was hurrying to get it all done, but I didn't know he asked Sean about it. I'll keep a lookout in the future. team atalkctrb 02:08, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
You're a love. Thank you. If I had known that's all I had to do (find relevant page and put it up top) I would've done it without bothering anyone but I really didn't have a clue. I do now though. Thank you again, as now I know for next time. Humbug will be very pleased! I had left a note on his talk page asking him to move his song to queue (I was going to do it if he didn't soon..) and since then he has put it there I guess it needs to be taken off the nomination page now? Yes? If so can you do that? Thank you again team a!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 02:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Sure. Actually, since the queue is parsed by UberBot, the syntax has to be exact. Since I missed adding a space, the song will be SOTD tomorrow (I added a note on Humbug's talk page). If it doesn't work properly, UberBot posts on Sean's page to notify him of the problem. team atalkctrb team a 12:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Ahh..I couldn't see anything wrong with what you had done. Btw I told Sean that although I didn't make the edit, that it was my fault.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 14:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

fLetter/Latin Alphabet

 If the first letter is a symbol, or is part of a non-Latin-based, ideographic writing system, such as Japanese, then use: fLetter=Symbol

Well that got your attention, didn't it? (I just wanted to be flash Ok. This has come up twice already today. Once here and secondly here. Although I am extremely knowledgeable in most areas (as you all know), I am no language expert. So can someone enlighten me on this subject please and also comment as to whether they feel that if we change "Roman style letters" on {{Welcome}} to "Latin Alphabet", users who use diacritics might think that this doesn't apply to them. Thank you!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 14:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The Latin language was used by the Romans, so the terms are interchangable. They simple refer to A-Z (and a-z). Other languages use acutes and graves and tildes, so there they exceed the Latin alphabet. --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 14:36, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
This topic has come up just recently. Note that we have subcategories for Cyrillic, Greek and Hebrew. If we allow accented characters to have their own category, it would be unfair to throw them all together under Symbol.
Another thought: for non-Latin artist names that have romanized redirect pages, would it make sense to add fLetter on those pages, so that someone who actually browses Category:Artists, but doesn't know the artist's "real" name, could find it?
PS. Speaking of redirects, any thoughts and ideas on the suggested spring cleaning above would be highly welcome, especially since Echo went to all this trouble to create an artists master list... *nudge nudge* -- 6x9 (Talk) 19:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, hadn't noticed that this was brought up on Sean's talk page.
I should have changed it to "Latin-based" (cf. "Romanized" for transliteration into the Latin alphabet). Are you sure that languages using diacritical marks don't technically use the Latin alphabet, Aqua? I know Latin uses macrons, but I don't know if that's an anachronistic statement or not. team atalkctrb 01:52, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
This is probably also an appropriate time to say that I'm planning to make all fLetter parameters deprecated within the next month, depending on how long the album edit takes to complete. This way, any fLetter policy change will affect all relevant pages using the variables, and users won't even need to know when to use what (does anyone like having to bother with fLetter?) team atalkctrb 01:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
These are symbols, they don't belong to any alphabet:
{ ] + ¿ ÷ ؟ ^ ⚡ "  - : ? ! @  ☏  ‰ ©
These are not symbols, they are parts of alphabet (Roman/Latin/Indic is not relevant)
Δ Σ Д  ש ל  स W 페 上 خ پ Ю S Z
fLetter should take the literal first letter and generate the index/Category based on that character. fLetter is used for categorising, The var fLetter shouldn't even be in the footer (since LW can reckon it from the name) unless it is needed to override the real fLetter (like Toyah, lol)
Bundling everything outside of A-Z-a-z into symbol category doesn't do justice to LW or the community, it's lame, it sucks like 60's computing (unlike the music) cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 05:07, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Echo is totally right. We should define a list of symbols (ES's is a good start) and otherwise have the system go with whatever the first "character" is. That way, we're not prejudiced against/for certain languages. --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 05:43, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
What's good for Greek, Cyrilic, English, etc. is good for all other languages. What was the original purpose of fLetter = Symbol anyway? so that non alphabetic symbols [^see above] get categorised together for simplicity, or ....? Then somebody decided anything not English looking is a symbol? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 06:16, 8 December 2008 (UTC) who's lost?

Prejudice Away

Thanks guys. Yes I totally agree. As does Ignor of course. "Bundling everything outside of A-Z-a-z into symbol category doesn't do justice to LW or the community, it's lame, it sucks." Letters are letters. They are not "symbols" OK, well they are, but... "What's good for Greek, Cyrilic, English, etc. is good for all other languages." Yes, some of our rules mean that things have to be translated to English, but we shouldn't be "prejudiced against/for certain languages". Also, from the entries in the various categories, it is clear that many are very confused about this.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 12:32, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Are we going to have a separate category for each Chinese, Korean, and Japanese ideogram?    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   03:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm with Kiefer. I think we should only list using fLetter characters for phonetic languages, i.e. languages with actual letters. Also, I think that there should be at least a certain number of pages in each given language before it is listed by letter. For example, we list albums by letter, but we don't list compilations by letter because there aren't that many. Our main artist, album and song categories will be awful cluttered with subcategories if we list by everything that's not a symbol. However, I think that we could list non-phonetic languages by fLetter, if that alphabet itself is a subcategory of artist, album or song. That way, having potentially thousands of subcategories to browse would only affect the users who chose to do so. team atalkctrb 04:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Chinese is the only language I know of that does not use a phonetic alphabet or a syllabary. And even native Chinese speakers are used to PinYin (the official romanization scheme). Sometimes, Japanese uses "Kanji" (Chinese characters) and they can be at the start of a word, but they have spellings in their own alphabet for such characters. Soooo, other than Chinese, I don't think it should a be a problem to sort every song by it's "fLetter". --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 05:15, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
So, you are saying that even if Japanese titles begin with a non-phonetic character (Kanji), those titles can be sorted by the word the Japanese use for that character. And, Chinese characters can be Romanized. That sounds like a reasonable plan. How are we going to develop the system to perform these transliterations, though? team atalkctrb 05:50, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
We should get Munk involved, since his Japanese is so good. He had me develope extra Code Purple stuff for Japanese songs, so he could add these details no sweat. As for the Chinese, aren't they supposed to has Romanized_Name as a parameter, so we can just take that fLetter? --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 06:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
We need to get the StringFunctions extension for getting the fLetter of Romanized Name, because the variables we have now are based on page titles (as you know). This whole multilingual thing needs a lot more research - perhaps even its own portal. However, that's the broader issue here. Does listing alphabets as subcategories of the 3 page types sound good to everyone? team atalkctrb 22:08, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Why do we have to do fLetter?

I know I must sound like a broken record, but on my wiki, whenever I run into something I'd like done, I go looking for an extension to do it for me. If we have RegexParserFunctions or StringFunctions installed, we could have every, single page auto-calculate the fLetter with no human footwork needed. I know an extension isn't the solution to everything this one is really clear (to me). --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 12:55, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Lol@I know I sound like a broken record. In the end Sean is going to have to install some of this stuff Aqua, just to shut you up!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 13:28, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I saw RegexParserFunctions before (I might have drolled on my keyboard just a little bit), but found no significant documentation, so I lost interest. However, StringFunctions looks absolutely unbelievable. I think we should stick to the present use of variables, though, to cut down on server load, but StringFunctions is now my second favorite extension. I do think we really need it. team atalkctrb 04:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
It may be a good time to let everybody know this. For some time, we have had several lyricwiki specific Magic Words for this type of stuff. Here are the ones currently implemented (and live on the server):
  • {{PAGETYPE}}=none. Will give the "type" of page, i.e. album,song,artist,talk
  • {{PAGETEMPLATE}}=PAGETEMPLATE. For use with the auto-templates.
  • {{ARTIST}}=ARTIST. Gives the full artist's name (native+romanization).
  • {{ARTISTFLETTER}}=ARTISTFLETTER. Gives the fLetter parameter for the current artist.
  • {{NATIVEARTIST}}=NATIVEARTIST. For artists that have a romanization, this gives the native part of the name.
  • {{ROMANARTIST}}=ROMANARTIST. For artists that have a romanization, this gives the romanization part.
  • {{ALBUM}}=ALBUM. Gives the album name on album pages.
  • {{ALBUMYEAR}}=ALBUMYEAR. Gives the album year on album pages.
  • {{ALBUMFLETTER}}=ALBUMFLETTER. Another fLetter parameter, this one for the album name.
  • {{SONG}}=SONG. Gives the song title on song pages.
  • {{SONGFLETTER}}=SONGFLETTER. Another fLetter parameter.
If you see that any of these are not working correctly, please let me know.
- teknomunk (talk,E,,A) 17:09, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Also, in regards to the above discussion about Japanese,Chinese,Korean,etc..., we could use the {{*FLETTER}} for automatically getting fLetters for the majority of songs, and then allowing an override for languages that this is not easily done.
- teknomunk (talk,E,,A) 17:13, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the definitive list! Many of these don't work properly, however, if there's more than one colon in a pagename: in those cases, everything up to the last colon is interpreted as artist (i.e. "Artist:Song:name" is read as "name by Artist:Song"), so we'll need the optional fLetter for those as well. -- 6x9 (Talk) 21:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Not surprised. The code that calculates the fLetters and such uses regular expressions and will fail at times. I would suggest that we use automated code for most cases and allow overrides to fix corner cases. That is not to say that we shouldn't try and fix this problem, just that it may not be possible.
- teknomunk (talk,E,,A) 17:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks TM for the list. The magic word ARTISTFLETTER doesn't work correctly, at least in the case of Arabic script. It returns "Symbol", can this be changed? see محمدرضا شجریان Additionally, the fact that Arabic is Right to Left may cause other issues. In cases of R to L, should the Romanized Artist name be entered on the right or the left of the native script? (asking nobody in particular!) cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () EchoSierra 21:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
That sounds right. This code was written quite some time ago when "Symbol" was the category that anything outside A-Z and 0-9 was dropped into. I would probably need to find some way to detect additional language letters, so it may be some time until this is changed.
- teknomunk (talk,E,,A) 17:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Although it doesn't actually say it (which perhaps it should), the example given on LyricWiki:Page Names is Romanized Artist name on right. This is also and the instruction on Help pages. Think this probably applies to all nationalities.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 00:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Those LW-specific variables are the reason I'm removing the fLetter parameter from the album edit. They do certainly work, except in the capacities mentioned above, where there is more than one colon, or no artist. This has caused considerable annoyance in the album edit, and so I have to check the page title to see if it's an album with no artist, or if it has no artist but there's a colon somewhere that makes it look like an artist, etc. If it's a compilation, i have to use ARTISTFLETTER, among other fixes. It's all summed up in this metatemplate: User:Team a/Sandbox/Album Redesigned/Mockup/Compilation. Note a few subsections above, I suggested that changes to fLetter should be made to the LW variables, and not be a matter of everyone and their bot making a bunch of conflicting edits. SMW anyone? Until our SMW implementation strategy is complete, I'd be happy with StringFunctions. team atalkctrb 03:45, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


Yes I know it's tantamount to swearing, but can someone please explain why some categories aren't linked to a top group? Is this an oversight, or is there some reason behind this that I can't see?  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 13:31, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Are you referring to Special:UncategorizedCategories? --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 16:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Yep. Because you see this leads to categories like Songs Needing iTunes Help being in an entirely different place to similar type categories, e.g. Songs Needing Amazon Help (which is in Requests for Help). Additionally, to duplicate categories being created, e.g. NofLetter and Songs SONGFLETTER. I'm not suggesting this should be immediately rectified (we got more than enough to be going on with for now and I got brain- ache) but I feel it does need looking at.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 17:44, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Ssslllooowww Motion...

Anyone know why the site is painfully slow at present? It isn't job queue (6). Or am I the only one experiencing this?  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 16:46, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

moves like peanut butter at -40 ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 16:52, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
or a turbo-charged, NOX-powered, rocket-propelled car ... with no tires. --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 17:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
This has been happening a lot lately, and people have been noticing (I think Kiefer said something about it too). I just asked Sean about it - hopefully he can get to the bottom of it, since it seems that we're limited to speculation, if even that. team atalkctrb 18:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
So it's not personal then? (hee hee) Ok. Thanks for asking Sean team a. That would've been my next step.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 20:47, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Just to remove some of the mystery:
  1. one occasional reason (postSong() in the SOAP is being slow)
  2. two other issues (right-hand ad is blocking nav from loading & we're getting locks on the SearchIndex table)
The good news is that as far as I know, none of those are huge inherent problems... the even better news is that we still have one server that's not really being used yet (it's just a complete, royal, unbelievable pain to set up "NFS" to work with LyricWiki which is what we'll need in order to get that working).
-Sean Colombo (talk|contribs) 02:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for feedback Sean.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 13:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
A little more info: while there are still some issues that are affecting performance (there probably always will be), the site should be un-slow now. If anyone is still having a consistently slow experience, please let me know. I will point you to Mountain Dew. jjk. Oh, that extra server is no longer extra however. It is now the search server. I'm going to be ordering another one though (our 7th) soon.
-Sean Colombo (talk|contribs) 00:13, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Blinkin' Instrumentals

Sorry...I just needed to share that with you because I've spent the past couple of hours it seems doing nothing but working on a page Roy Buchanan that was (and still is to a lesser extent now though) basically a lot of empty red links and Instrumentals. I ask you why??? Grrrr... ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 13:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Because you suffer from Erythrophobia? You have a bit of OCD? You are totally awesome and a bit of a glutton for punishment? Stop me when I'm getting close....    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   21:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Hee hee because I'm totally awesome of course! (I think I also invented a new definition for "self harm" too along the way).
Now I'm not saying I agree, but I ask you how many times has this kinda thing happened recently Help_talk:Contents/Editing/Formatting/Songs#Instrumental_Songs? Another weird coincidence?  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 12:45, 15 December 2008 (UTC) P.S. You should be very pleased because for over a year and a half the html was broken and the top of the page was all disjointed and weird (blame Michko and his head on 9th of July 2007)...and today I finally fixed it!

Genre Parameter?

User:Acccept just asked why there is no genre parameter in ArtistHeader. Should we add one? This would be limited to one genre, and only for artists where it is appropriate (i.e. those who mostly stick to one genre). It could look something like this. What do you think? -- 6x9 (Talk) 02:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

The way you did that looks rather nice. I wonder, however, if it's too confusing to have the same parameter top and bottom. Hopefully, this will all go away once we have just one template per page, but until then maybe we should not duplicate things. {{ArtistHeader}} is still used in a tiny percentage of artist's pages. --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 11:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
About that... If we list labels on artist pages, why not genres? Instead of hiding them at the bottom between all the other categories, we could use something like this instead. ({{Label}} could be optimised in the same way, BTW – why ==Label== followed by repeated calls of Label, if the template could produce the header and accept multiple parameters?) -- 6x9 (Talk) 20:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
{{Labels}} -- 6x9 (Talk) 20:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, you've convinced me. I've seen too recently, however, the stink that happens when just one other person and I agree on changing something. Maybe you should pester Redxx on her talk page and then she'll go after someone else! --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 22:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
@Aqua..Haa haa..well 6x9 did as you suggested and came and pestered me, but I'm sorry to say Aqua you won't escape my attentions. I got eyes everywhere ;) However, it was actually very well timed, because I have come to really like {{ArtistHeader}}. It looks really stylish and makes a real improvement to the artist page and so I was wondering when (or if) we could make it official? Just wondered what everyone else thought of it...
And although I'm still undecided about the genre being in artist box, I think most users are probably more interested in genre than labels, so it does seem a bit back to front to have a section available for labels (who ever bothers with that?) whilst genre is hidden away. Yes I know it shows in categories at the bottom of page but I doubt many take much notice of it there.
@6x9 I think your {{Labels}} and {{Genres}} are excellent. More of it I say! But can you just explain why the TOC doesn't start at same level as {{ArtistHeader}}? I think it is on Roy Buchanan's page I noticed it. ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 23:53, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
I must admit I'm utterly stumped. The funny thing is that it disappears at once when you either remove the pic OR leave the pic, but add myspace and/or officialSite. I guess that's just one of the manifold mysteries of html tables. -- 6x9 (Talk) 00:27, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I somehow managed to squash that bug by deleting the line break between pic and officialSite. Unfortunately, then it appeared on pages without a pic... so I deleted all linebreaks in the table, just to be on the safe side. Of course, this means that now you can't look at the template in edit mode without bundles of hairs turning grey, falling out, or both. I think this might be proof that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle applies to information as well. There might be a Nobel prize lurking in there somewhere! -- 6x9 (Talk) 20:10, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes I saw you was having fun ;)  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 21:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
{{Labels}} is brilliant. I am totally for changing it on every page. I also hope that labels and genres make their way into {{ArtistHeader}}, if possible. team atalkctrb 05:51, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't see how that could be done without complicating things. Right now it's pretty simple, to add a genre/label just put its name after a pipe. If we roll it into artistheader, users would have to type "label7=... label8=... genre4=..." etc. I'm all for simplifying things, but in this case, leaving them as separate templates is definitely simpler! -- 6x9 (Talk) 18:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Songs and Albums sorting: a revolutionary idea

Is there a specific reason why we sort songs and albums by pagenames, rather than by song and album titles? The latter would have one big advantage: a person knowing a song title, but not the artist who recorded it, would actually have a chance of finding the song in [[Category:Artists *]]. All it should take is replacing [[Category:Songs {{{fLetter}}}]] in {{SongFooter}} with [[Category:Songs {{{fLetter}}}|{{{song}}}]] and the equivalent thing in {{Album}}. -- 6x9 (Talk) 20:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I think you mean [[Category:Songs *]], though, right? We don't need to change anything for [[Category:Artists *]]. Since the fLetter parameter should be removed anyway, I suggest that the code be [[Category:Songs {{SONGFLETTER}}|{{{song}}}]]. I'll do the equivalent in the album edit, unless I see opposition here. team atalkctrb 22:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
*slaps forehead* Yes, I meant [[Category:Songs *]], silly me. The problem with {{SONGFLETTER}} is that it doesn't work correctly if there's a colon in the song title: see this for a made-up example. (Don't hit "Save page", though!) -- 6x9 (Talk) 22:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes I agree too. It presented me with a problem yesterday and it was very frustrating scrolling through the pages. I added the second letter index (superb idea - thanks again) but as sorted by artist name it didn't help much looking for song name.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 12:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Blanking sections or pages

Admins can now "blank"-out sections or pages. That was an anti-spam/vandalism feature, so I made it have an exception. It's unfortunate that spambots can create accounts so easily or we could just open blanking to all registered users. Anyway... should save all of us some time (esp. when deleting sections from talk pages!).
-Sean Colombo (talk|contribs) 22:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Sean.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 12:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Job Queue

Has anyone else noticed that the job queue has been about 18,500 for about three days straight now? Is this a result of the server replication problem mentioned on Sean's talk page? team atalkctrb 23:16, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and yes, and yes, it's best to schedule template updates so that such tasks don't end up happening concurrently ;) and thanks for all the protections you put on those templates, been a busy day of zombie attacks, glad templates are safe. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 23:32, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
It's not even like you can eat a template's brains... team atalkctrb 03:59, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
I bet you've wanted to on a few occasions too team a!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 22:46, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
No, you've got it turned around. I've got a broken beer bottle next to my laptop in case they ever try it, too. team atalkctrb 19:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Remind me not to come near you when you're "unsober"  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 18:49, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


Who knows JS here? I have a question. Thanks. team atalkctrb 03:52, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I have a rudimentary understanding of JavaScript. meekly Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 03:54, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Copyright notice

When editing a page, there are two edit tips/warnings. The first one is in plain text above the save button (MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning). The second one is a formatted pink box below the save button (MediaWiki:Edittools). Personally, I like the second one a lot better, and I don't think we need both. Is anyone in favor of merging them? team atalkctrb 04:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

The second one is much more in line with our other stuff (like new artist/song/album pages big, yellow boilerplate). I vote edittools. --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 04:56, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Pretty pink (I don't go a lot on white space ;)). The plain text gets lost in amongst the other plain text. The pink is more noticeable. But see what others think.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 18:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Another vote for merging. (Or rather doing away with copyrightwarning – what if it keeps someone from adding copyrighted lyrics?) -- 6x9 (Talk) 18:56, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
We don't want copyrighted lyrics, do we? edittools, aye ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 18:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC) is there a magic string for timestamp without username?
We do, don't we? Help:FAQ#Is this page legal? ~~~ name only; ~~~~~ date only
Are lyrics copyrighted? This can't be true, especially when referring to the actual song itself. Even quoting lyrics can't be illegal. Also, do you think that pink box should go below or above the submit button? The space right below the submit button is going to have more shortcuts and templates to enter, so the pink box would be pushed down a little. There's also a place to put stuff at the top of the page as well. team atalkctrb 23:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Lyrics are a part of songs, and songs are copyrighted. You often see lines like "Used by permission" or "Lyrics reproduced by kind permission of" on lyric sheets and in CD booklets.
I'd put the pink box above the buttons – it's more noticeable that way. (Right now, while editing this page, the buttons are just above the bottom border, so I don't even get to see that box without scrolling down.) -- 6x9 (Talk) 23:49, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
I never thought you meant do away with copyright notice team a..I thought you meant merge into one notice, either pink or white? No we certainly can't do away with copyright notice. It's probably a legal requirement anyway. Copyright is a grey area when it comes to lyrics. Something about them being written down. But notice has got to stay.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 04:57, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
?? Team didn't mean to get rid of the copyright notice, did you team a? Yes, it's gotta stay else we'll be swarmed by eager beavers and legal eagles. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 05:14, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
I was asking a philosophical issue about the legality, yes. I tend to do that sometimes. We need a copyright notice for everything, whether for main pages, images or anything else that gets posted. I'm going to be a little busy over the next week, but I'll see if I can't write up a proposal. Or, if anyone wants to do it, we can vote and then change the appropriate interface messages. team atalkctrb 06:13, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

What Happened?!

{{Additional Albums}} is broken?! U2:Sunday Bloody Sunday doesn't look good (hit 'show') . What changed? --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 05:19, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

The template wasn't broken, the song was… It seems like placing each parameter on a new line is only allowed if all parameters have aliases (album2 etc.); in case of Add. Albums, the first one doesn't, which for some unfathomable reason leads to colons being interpreted as line breaks. I suspect if you replaced {{{1}}} with {{{artist}}}, it would work. -- 6x9 (Talk) 06:05, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
PS. Funnily enough, it works if you have the pipe directly before the line break, instead of after…
White space and returns aren't stripped from implicitly named parameters, unfortunately. I can see why they should be for formatting named parameters, but they should have applied that back to the unnamed parameters as well, if you ask me. team atalkctrb 07:43, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
I had no idea numbered parameters were handled so differently. This has been a learning experience for me! Sorry to create such a stink over nothing. :-( --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 07:44, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
No, it's a good thing you brought it up (and I learned a thing or two as well in the process). I suggest replacing {{{1}}} with {{{artist|{{ARTIST}}}}} though: (1) this problem won't crop up anymore; (2) it won't affect pages that already use {{{1}}}, since that parameter will simply get ignored; and (3) artist is hardly ever needed anyway, unless the song title has a colon in it, so why not make it optional? I made the required changes in my sandbox (where I also fixed type=soundtrack to actually display "soundtrack" rather than album). -- 6x9 (Talk) 18:53, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
I changed the template and all the links. --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 04:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


Google search of lyrics returns stale results, searching for "&amp" in lyrics returns hundreds of results that no longer match ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 06:15, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Google only caches site every three months. I hope (look on Sean's page) that we are moving to Lucerne, internal search engine -- like Wikipedia itself uses. ---Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 09:42, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Indeed we have moved since that last message. Ironically, we're not doing automatic updates yet though, so we'll ALSO have stale data until I can get that working (it's currently undocumented how to do that... fanTABulous!).
-Sean Colombo (talk|contribs) 03:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the update Sean, I was going to call you on that! I am still searching and cleaning up "&amps;"s sitewide, but at least the cleaned up pages show differently in search results, which helps. It still returns 15000+ results, but it should be much less than that. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 04:22, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

New AotW

Is anyone aversed to me changing the AotW on Thurs (Christmas Day) through Jan 1st to Pink Floyd:Wish You Were Here (1975)? I know that I'm the Pink Floyd nut around here (or at least one of them), but I think we can do a little better than Yeah Yeah Yeahs:Fever To Tell (2003) for the holiday season. Here are a few reasons why I think Wish You Were Here would be better:

  1. I will have the album up to Gold by that point. (I just need to confirm the lyrics for "Have a Cigar" and "Shine On You Crazy Diamond (Parts VI-IX)").
  2. The album page is simple. Wish You Were Here has only five songs, and no special editions or other crap has come out with bonus tracks (at least I haven't seen any). I think sometimes, album pages just start to look terrible due to the fact that the artist feels that they need to give us twelve different versions of the same album (but this one is the "ultimate super-deluxe biggest-fan collector's edition" with the twelve different versions of each song we've ever written since birth). Just see David Gilmour:Live In Gdańsk (2008) for how out of control these things can get.
  3. It may not be a Christmas album, but see my write-up for the front page on how I tie it in to the holiday season.
  4. It's my personal opinion, but I think this is Floyd's best album, just outdoing The Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall because its concept reaches beyond the feelings of one person for himself (Waters liked to throw pity parties for himself, but this album actually shows compassion for others).
  5. For those that care about the time between nominations of the same artist, Pink Floyd's other AotW's were in Nov 2006 (TDSotM) Sept. 2007 (The Wall), so it has been over a year since their last AotW.
  6. I'll be doing all the work: I run the AotW (as you probably know), so all you guys need to do is OK it with me and I'll put it up.

Again, I think we can do a little better than Fever to Tell (plus it gives me the ability to throw my favorite album on AotW). And afterwards, I'll revert it back to that album, and it will have the distinct honor of being AotW for two non-consecutive time intervals (hello Grover Cleveland). Anyway, here's my front-page write-up:

Wish You Were Here is Pink Floyd's second concept album and, arguably, their best work. It doesn't have the honor of selling over 40 million copies (that goes to their The Dark Side of the Moon), nor was it big enough to make it to the big screen (Floyd's double-album concept of The Wall was also made into a film). No, it isn't their biggest album or their grandest production, but it may be the best writing ever produced by Roger Waters, who is credited in writing or co-writing every song in their catalogue from The Dark Side of the Moon (1973) until The Final Cut. I say this is his best writing because it shows compassion for others. The Dark Side of the Moon, Animals, The Wall, and The Final Cut mainly focus on how the author feels for himself, but Wish You Were Here is a cry for missing the friend that cannot be brought back.
Wish You Were Here's concept is a yearning for the band's lost member, Syd Barrett. Syd was forced to leave the band in 1968 when his inability to perform at any level on stage (their are stories of him standing on stage for entire shows) crippled the band's chances of progressing through their stage performances. Despite having toured consistently with Roger Waters, Richard Wright, and Nick Mason for about three years, and having been good friends with them since their early schooldays, the members had no choice but to send him away. His lack of passion for the art he used to love is attributed mainly to his constant drug abuse, which also is blamed for his reclusive behavior for most of his adult life. Wish You Were Here is a calling to Syd, knowing that things could never go back to the ways that they were, and a wishing him a good future.
This concept goes well with the holiday season: we are called to be compassionate towards others in the upcoming days. It also reminds me of all the families out there that will not have their whole family together to celebrate this season, especially the families who are affected by the current Iraq War.
Personally, I like this album not only for its concept, but I also believe that the music sounds masterful. "Shine On You Crazy Diamond," a nine-part suite broken into two tracks on the album, has a total time reaching over 25 minutes. Its beautiful melodies do not feel like they drag on, rather, they build up to a climax of love for a lost soul. "Wish You Were Here" has simple but enigmatic lyrics pointed to Syd. The other two songs, "Welcome to the Machine" and "Have a Cigar," are more posed as a mockery to the music industry. "Welcome to the Machine" recalls feelings that also show up in Animals, and "Have a Cigar" is a rocker in its own right.
So if you're interested in listening to one of the greatest albums of all time, don't hesitate to buy this album and slip it into your player before your cashier can even give you the receipt.
--WillMak050389 13:51, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I didn't read that monster essay you just wrote, but I'm all for it. What's the point in being administrators if we can't flex our authority now and then? ;-) --Åqüã†ìкí ƒΔΣ 13:53, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
...go, Go, GO! for it... ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 14:02, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Go ahead! You're not the only one who prefers WYWH over Dark Side… We might be the only two, though!6x9 (Talk) 19:32, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
@6x9 >>>User:Redxx/Sandbox (hee didn't come out too good)  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 07:12, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks guys! I didn't think anyone would reject the idea, but I thought I'd present it instead of just doing it. I'm going to work on puttin' it up now... --WillMak050389 05:20, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
Me too...great album..great 'em!  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 07:07, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


Can someone please tell me how to enable the Wiked? Only I deleted my .js user page after Humbug posted this on my page. I also thought it wouldn't do any harm, that I didn't need it anymore now, etc. because Sean said he'd installed it for whole site. But it isn't showing as an option in my preferences, or in my edit window. And it's these little things that really get Redxx extremely frustrated...rfl.. ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 23:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a little edit box with a pencil in the upper-right hand corner of your screen? Next to the log out link? If it looks grey, click on it and it should be colored. WikEd then should be on. If you don't have that icon, I'm not sure what to do... --WillMak050389
Cheers Will but no it all vanished..but..I got it back..!! I don't quite know what did it. I recreated the .js page but renamed it lyricwiki.js (lowercase) although it worked OK before as LyricWiki (caps) (assuming it did anything at all lol). Anyway that made no odds. I emptied my cache (again). I logged out, in, out, in, shake it all the okey cokey and turn around...still nothing. I shut down Firefox (again). Still nothing. Then I reinstalled Wiked script again via Greasemonkey and link on Wikipedia (even tho I already had script installed and enabled). Something worked. Thanks.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 00:04, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Badges, those stinking badges!

Pink Floyd:Learning To Fly: don't those badges need to be made the same height & width, and with no space btwn them? I have no clue how many badges we have, but would be nice to have a master template for their placement, diemensions, and serving temperature ;) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 06:00, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

See the discussion that used to be here but has been moved. As soon as I moved it, the discussion died – looks like no-one has that page on their watchlist… Here's a modified version with width and colours like the other badges. — 6x9 (Talk) 06:52, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Cool, but check The page now, can the space btwn the two badges be removed? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 07:32, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
It can be easily removed, but some people might like it that way (including me)… At least I assume the folks who did the original templates put it there for a reason. I could reduce it though – look at it now. But let's see what the others think. — 6x9 (Talk) 18:25, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the diff! I posted here so everybody can see it and chime in...the gap btwn the "this song also appears" in hidden mode and the badge, is smaller than the gap btwn the two badges... cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 18:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Looks good. The text could be centered to match the SOTD badge, but that's a minor thing. (What can I say? I like uniformity. :-] )    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   19:07, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
What do you mean? It is centered :-) Of course, now that three of them look uniform, B-Hits is the odd one out, what with the icon being on the right side and everything… Are we agreed on reducing the between-badge spaces? — 6x9 (Talk) 19:48, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Can you also make an example of badges with only 1 brown pix in btwn? This looks great except the thick mortar lines, just trying to accomodate more bricks in the wall. I can smell another Periodic voting Table coming down the line :) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 20:18, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Various margin settings – be sure to compare them at various font sizes. (For me, the one that looks best at all font sizes is the last one, 2px.) — 6x9 (Talk) 21:27, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Good work 6x9! 2px yes. Talking of there any way you can make the blue on the Wikipedia badge the same as the others?  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 23:05, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
You might want to read this section from the top… *cough, cough* — 6x9 (Talk) 23:08, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Sorry 6x9 I'm not getting it. Perhaps it's my eyes cos now they all look slightly different blues to me. The Wikipedia one being the palest. Perhaps it's to do with the italicised text. Or have I missed something?  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 01:59, 31 December 2008 (UTC) Moooo...
Oh, you mean the link text! That's just the regular colours: "normal" blue for internal and pale blue for external links. I *could* change the wp one, but I don't think that's a good idea. They are different for a reason. — 6x9 (Talk) 02:17, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Now you've caught up ;) and overtaken me thank you for explanation. No, I just thought it was an oversight, but like you say it's intentional, to differentiate.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 02:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Happy new year everyone! {{WP-Song}} has now been released into the wild. Unlike the regular {{Wikipedia}} template, pages end up in Category:Wikipedia articles/Song (should help bots when replacing the latter on song pages). I've also reduced the bottom margins of the other three templates, so now they're all 2px. See all four of them in action here. Are those the only badges? — 6x9 (Talk) 06:14, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the update! The 2px looks good, and so does {{WP-Song}}. Since it's good-to-go, I added it to the Help page for songs. (A small tweak is still needed on the Billboard Hits template. Since the graphic isn't as tall as the box, the bottom line "is a Billboard Hit!" drifts a bit to the left. -- I know...never happy! ;-] )    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   03:54, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

RFC: dirty lyrics

lyrics like this: [3] show up like this (Image:PF-AHM=Junk in Lyrics+Bug+attnRedxx.png) (GimmeSomeTune widget), and the "lyric" tags in the lyrics causes the lyrics to not display at all in other widgets (Harmonic). I advocate keeping all formattery outside the lyric box for the API clients. Earlier discussion is on my talk page which basically comes down to whether it's ok to put non lyrics (tags etc.) into the lyric box. Can we have a vote? RSVP cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ () 22:25, 30 December 2008 (UTC) LyricWiki:Plugins

I don't suppose we could get the authors of those scripts to fix them so that they simply ignore any html tags inside lyric tags…? I don't think we can do away with multiple lyric tags, because translations at least need them. (We could probably find a way to work around that, though…) At least italic and bold formatting should be allowed, no matter what. — 6x9 (Talk) 23:12, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Can we please have some input on this subject from our more experienced admin as I think Echo's solution to the problem experienced by some of our users who access the site indirectly is far from ideal. And I would rather not get into an edit war with a fellow admin ;)  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 14:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC) P.S. My edit Kiefer's edit (where I got idea from) variation on the theme
Is the problem with the API or with the widget programming? I think that changing what the site is doing to be visually appealing to those that visit the site through "normal" means (and therefore give the site a chance at getting a little income to pay for spiffy things like servers) is a bit of the tail wagging the dog. The solution should be to improve the API on our end (which isn't Sean working on the API?), or better programming by those that implement the site in widgets, etc. (I mean, we can't be expected to change things because of programmers' lack of testing.) I'm not sure what exactly is causing the mix-up, but programming to "look" for multiple uses of the lyrics tags seems like a quick fix, while re-formatting those other pages (Japanese with translations, for example) is a white-hot migraine. Multiple lyrics tags are just a necessity, as the current state of PF:AHM illustrates.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   23:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Thank you Kiefer. Just so as I am sure I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that we should not change the way we format a page to compensate for flaws in these scripts, i.e. to make it more visually appealing to users of the same? The reason I ask is because of your use of the word "normal" and because of Echo's comment that I was "confusing users with editors, song pages with album/artist pages, Web browsing with listening to music, and lyricwiki with myspace." He knows of course that I'm not stupid, he just has a few problems accepting it...rfl.  ♫Яєdxx Actions Words 02:55, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
If the fault is with the API, then we (meaning Sean) should fix the API. If the fault is due to the script/widget programmer creating their script so that it only works with the most basic page format, then the programmer needs to make their script function in a less limited fashion, yes.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   04:33, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

(Pagesize = 99,320)

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